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Xfce 4.16 Is Making Good Progress On Utilizing GTK3 Client-Side Decorations

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  • #11
    Michael I get why you have an approval queue for posts, but shouldn't we be able to edit them before approval? I've made grammar errors and I can't fix them, I get "Error
    • You are not authorized to update this post."

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    • #12
      Using headerbars for everything such as dialog windows seems kinda dumb.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by Baguy View Post
        Bet alot of people will be flocking away from XFCE with these changes.
        It saves a lot of space especially in the settings windows, why shouldn't I be happy?

        Originally posted by Britoid View Post
        Using headerbars for everything such as dialog windows seems kinda dumb.
        This I totally agree with, it has the opposite effect.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by Baguy View Post
          I'm referring to the CSD. Quite a few people don't like that.
          More like, a few noisy people don't like CSD... the vast majority neither know what CSD is, nor care.

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          • #15
            Originally posted by Delgarde View Post

            More like, a few noisy people don't like CSD... the vast majority neither know what CSD is, nor care.
            To be honest, half the people that complain about client side decoration don't know what it is either and constantly confuse it with headerbars.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by willbprog177 View Post
              I'm an old dude, who likes 'legacy', stuff I guess. I don't see the point of CSD. To me it seems like a waste of system resources. Instead of having a window manager that manages the decorations on each window, we now will have each client draw its own? So does this mean it's going to be like Windows, where some apps have the native decorations while every third-party app has some dorky-looking non-native totally different decorations? I'll crawl back under my X11 rock now
              Actually CSD is more efficient overall. It allows solving of some problems that are difficult or unsolvable with SSD, and what it REALLY is is having the toolkit handle decoration on the client side, so it doesn't mean "every app is custom". Drawing your own in your app is perfectly possible in X11 - just set WM hints to have your window be borderless then draw your own. It also opens up possibilities to new ideas and saving space (e.g. re-using the titlebar for tabs...). Chrome has been doing this by default for many years. x11amp did it decades ago and many apps like it do still. Nothing new there at all. If you truly want to do your own decorations you can and have been able to forever (and before people used MWM hints for being borderless you could just abuse override-redirect windows that bypass the WM entirely).

              FYI i'm both a WM, Compositor, Application and toolkit author (X11 and Wayland), so I see the problem space from all the angles and am not just blinded by one view. I'm also old and crusty. My initial reaction to CSD was "ewwww". But I thought about it deeply and changed my mind. The problems with CSD are about abuse, not use. Abuse is already possible and has been "forever". Some decisions about how to do CSD are probably bad - but it'd be just as bad if WM's decided to move titlebars to the bottom of windows on dialogs too (for example) that break habits, expectations and flow.
              Last edited by raster; 01-14-2020, 01:35 PM.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by Shiba View Post

                It saves a lot of space especially in the settings windows, why shouldn't I be happy?

                "
                Originally posted by Britoid View Post

                Using headerbars for everything such as dialog windows seems kinda dumb
                "

                This I totally agree with, it has the opposite effect.
                So it saves space in settings windows but isn't useful for dialogs.
                Unfortunately most settings windows ARE dialogs. So now what?

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                • #18
                  No one has mentioned what I see as the biggest problem with this decision, and that's Wayland. Specifically in the context of losing virtualization guest optimizations. Maybe Virtualbox and Vmware will figure out how to accelerate Wayland. But as it is now, X11 is about the only way to get acceptable performance from a VM. At least, when using it interactively as a GUI user.

                  That's really the only reason I use XFCE now. I get that X11 has problems and needs to go away. And that compositing is the future. But that also means that, for me personally, XFCE has lost its main advantage as a desktop environment. (I mean, there's not much about I really _don't_ like.)

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by Bubbles_by_day View Post
                    No one has mentioned what I see as the biggest problem with this decision, and that's Wayland. Specifically in the context of losing virtualization guest optimizations. Maybe Virtualbox and Vmware will figure out how to accelerate Wayland. But as it is now, X11 is about the only way to get acceptable performance from a VM. At least, when using it interactively as a GUI user.

                    That's really the only reason I use XFCE now. I get that X11 has problems and needs to go away. And that compositing is the future. But that also means that, for me personally, XFCE has lost its main advantage as a desktop environment. (I mean, there's not much about I really _don't_ like.)
                    Wayland runs under KVM/libvirt/Gnome Boxes okay.

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by Bubbles_by_day View Post
                      No one has mentioned what I see as the biggest problem with this decision, and that's Wayland. Specifically in the context of losing virtualization guest optimizations. Maybe Virtualbox and Vmware will figure out how to accelerate Wayland. But as it is now, X11 is about the only way to get acceptable performance from a VM. At least, when using it interactively as a GUI user.

                      That's really the only reason I use XFCE now. I get that X11 has problems and needs to go away. And that compositing is the future. But that also means that, for me personally, XFCE has lost its main advantage as a desktop environment. (I mean, there's not much about I really _don't_ like.)
                      Some notes:
                      • The Wayland backend in GTK+3 is optional (as far as I know)
                      • Some compositors are performing a full-screen update even if just a single pixel changes on the screen
                      • GPU utilization of glxgears running at 60 Hz is about 1% without a compositor, and about 5% with the XFCE compositor (causing GPU memory and GPU shaders to run at their maximum clocks)
                      • Some compositors, specifically the XFCE compositor, are causing FreeSync not to work properly

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