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[oiaohm]

I wouldn't follow them. This is the point you don't get it. And I won't follow them, because I hate idiots and I won't be kind to them and I won't develop any relations with dumb people. Except in different areas like sport where being smart is not always necessary.

Really you are a idiot here.

boxie
I partially agree with you, but in the mentioned CoC there were more points than needed. If someone tries to force me to be nice it works opposite. I'm nice, because it's natural and welcomed behavior in my case (if I'm not forced to work with dumb people - and dealing with them takes more time and energy than dealing with toxic, but intelligent people), but when I see such regulations they're making me bad. From time to time people have to explode their emotions, so everything goes to normal level. If you're forced to 'be nice' it can drove you mad.

This proves you are more of a idiot.

You are forgetting something so basic. You no more than ripples on the surface of a pond. Everyone is promoted to the point they are incompetent. Dealing with incompetent people is part of life like it or not. A dumb person today could be the person who few years have learnt their job and is now highly competent.

Needing to rant and deal with your emotions does not mean you have to do it on a public mailing list. If being forced to be nice when dealing with your coworkers and this drives you mad you are most likely to have poor stress management and would die from that anyhow. Yes going insane from being nice and end up in a mental hospital would extend your life in 99% of cases this has in fact been studied by different armed forces into human behaviours.

Its funny enough forced to be nice or forced to be nasty both can make a person mentally ill if they don't have good stress management. Lack of good stress management takes decades off your life. So yes military training is designed to weed this personal faults out.

So CoC added to the Linux kernel should extend the life span of the Linux kernel maintainers. There is upside to having to be nice.

[Volta]

oiaohm
Nice theory, but in practice it's a little different. Army example doesn't stand, because dumb people have no place in special forces. In regular army they're dominated by smarter soldiers. I wasn't talking about incompetence, but about being dumb. Two different things. If someone is dumb right now he will bring a risk to entire squad. The same when comes to programming. Company may loose a lot of money, because of him. If you're too nice to him then he may not have enough motivation to become smarter (if possible) or change a job. You can of course criticize someone politely, but being forced to show empathy and being respectful is too much. When someone accuses you of bad driving (and it's his fault) are you saying: ok, I'm sorry, won't happen again? Then in your home you're dealing with your emotions: what a fucking dumb shit, it was his fault? What's more funny it's me who's against dumb CoC, but my answers didn't offend anyone personally in this thread. This is why CoC make people hypocrites.

[skeevy420]

oiaohm
What's more funny it's me who's against dumb CoC, but my answers didn't offend anyone personally in this thread. This is why CoC make people hypocrites.

I consider this one to be offensive.

It's about fucking programming not some jewish christians meeting. If they're toxic and good programmers it's a win. Nice people without coding skills should be burnt with fire in such places.

Bringing up religion and burning people with fire....come on now.

[edwaleni]

Who uses sound cards anymore?

Stay digital. Use a good solid DAC.

No noise. No crackling. No fuss, no muss.

[boxie]

boxie
I partially agree with you, but in the mentioned CoC there were more points than needed. If someone tries to force me to be nice it works opposite. I'm nice, because it's natural and welcomed behavior in my case (if I'm not forced to work with dumb people - and dealing with them takes more time and energy than dealing with toxic, but intelligent people), but when I see such regulations they're making me bad. From time to time people have to explode their emotions, so everything goes to normal level. If you're forced to 'be nice' it can drove you mad.

To be fair a CoC should never get in the way or cause you hassle. It should be something that gets read once and then only referenced again if required.

[oiaohm]

oiaohmNice theory, but in practice it's a little different. Army example doesn't stand, because dumb people have no place in special forces.

In times of major war armies to tollerate the dumb as cannon fonder.

In regular army they're dominated by smarter soldiers. )

True a point but all armies have their idiots. Those idiots are useful because they are dumb enough not to think out if I do X action i have less than 1 in a million chance of it working and me being alive so will attempt it.

I wasn't talking about incompetence, but about being dumb. Two different things. If someone is dumb right now he will bring a risk to entire squad.

So dumb is doubled sided. Dumb may be the very thing that in battle saves the core of the squad by being cannon fonder. Armies have personal with IQ levels that they are technically not smart enough to take care of themselves. Correct training they are still useful.

The same when comes to programming. Company may loose a lot of money, because of him.

May or may not. Idiot/dumb trying odd ball things testing code can be a really good asset. Again this is cannon fonder management.

If you're too nice to him then he may not have enough motivation to become smarter (if possible) or change a job.

So you have not read the CoC or did not understand it. The word nice is not part of the CoC.
https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/late...f-conduct.html
There is a line in the CoC.
Gracefully accepting constructive criticism
This does not say you have to be nice.

You can of course criticize someone politely, but being forced to show empathy and being respectful is too much.

I don't get where you get politely from. Politely means you cannot be blunt. Empathy and respectful does not mean you cannot be blunt in listing their coding defects and recommending a training course to improve their skills. Constructive criticism means you must provide the chance for them to improve themselves not just abusively yell at them. Of course a highly blunt constructive criticism does not make you feel great.

When someone accuses you of bad driving (and it's his fault) are you saying: ok, I'm sorry, won't happen again?

Yes I am when it equals me not coming a dead person laying on the side of the road so being another death at hands of a road rage idiot.

Then in your home you're dealing with your emotions: what a fucking dumb shit, it was his fault?

That bad stress management. What are you upset about your home and alive and the idiot is not my problem any more.

Same with getting upset about Linus or another maintainer point out your code is badly broken and you think it right. No point fighting over that idea too much does help things.

Besides with how defective human memory with driving you can think that you are in the right until you review your own dash camera and go bugger opps I did not see X. So there is really no point getting upset about these things either the evidence will prove you were right or wrong. This is also why you want constructive criticism just in case the person who say X is fault you look at it and go hey look at this here and they made a mistake.

What's more funny it's me who's against dumb CoC, but my answers didn't offend anyone personally in this thread.

You did bring religion into a coding debate. I do class that as attempting to be offensively troll to get bite. So yes you did offend me with that comment. Just because I turned the other cheek like a good christian does not mean it was not offensive to me personally. You need to learn just because people don't complain about your offensive comment does not mean you have not offended people just some of us follow our religion/beliefs and don't bite.

This is why CoC make people hypocrites.

No the CoC puts down a lot of good rules to avoid offending people and being classed as a idiot jackass who does not know how to act in a civilised world in there eyes so resulting in you not being taken seriously..

I have been nice enough to give you criticism you can learn from or not.

[jrch2k8]

In times of major war armies to tollerate the dumb as cannon fonder.


True a point but all armies have their idiots. Those idiots are useful because they are dumb enough not to think out if I do X action i have less than 1 in a million chance of it working and me being alive so will attempt it.


So dumb is doubled sided. Dumb may be the very thing that in battle saves the core of the squad by being cannon fonder. Armies have personal with IQ levels that they are technically not smart enough to take care of themselves. Correct training they are still useful.


May or may not. Idiot/dumb trying odd ball things testing code can be a really good asset. Again this is cannon fonder management.



So you have not read the CoC or did not understand it. The word nice is not part of the CoC.
https://www.kernel.org/doc/html/late...f-conduct.html
There is a line in the CoC.
Gracefully accepting constructive criticism
This does not say you have to be nice.



I don't get where you get politely from. Politely means you cannot be blunt. Empathy and respectful does not mean you cannot be blunt in listing their coding defects and recommending a training course to improve their skills. Constructive criticism means you must provide the chance for them to improve themselves not just abusively yell at them. Of course a highly blunt constructive criticism does not make you feel great.



Yes I am when it equals me not coming a dead person laying on the side of the road so being another death at hands of a road rage idiot.


That bad stress management. What are you upset about your home and alive and the idiot is not my problem any more.

Same with getting upset about Linus or another maintainer point out your code is badly broken and you think it right. No point fighting over that idea too much does help things.

Besides with how defective human memory with driving you can think that you are in the right until you review your own dash camera and go bugger opps I did not see X. So there is really no point getting upset about these things either the evidence will prove you were right or wrong. This is also why you want constructive criticism just in case the person who say X is fault you look at it and go hey look at this here and they made a mistake.



You did bring religion into a coding debate. I do class that as attempting to be offensively troll to get bite. So yes you did offend me with that comment. Just because I turned the other cheek like a good christian does not mean it was not offensive to me personally. You need to learn just because people don't complain about your offensive comment does not mean you have not offended people just some of us follow our religion/beliefs and don't bite.



No the CoC puts down a lot of good rules to avoid offending people and being classed as a idiot jackass who does not know how to act in a civilised world in there eyes so resulting in you not being taken seriously..

I have been nice enough to give you criticism you can learn from or not.

Note this will be my only post about this, not interested in getting into a debate here.

This is science not humanities, hence CoC are useful on a very limited scope if at all because honestly the truth is:

as an user or a developer i don't care at all if contributors are nice, their sexual/political/religious/race views, i don't care about their skin, their health or really anything else about them at all as long as their code/design/proposal is better(it is that simple).

AKA.

if a really nice sensible guy with all the right views give me an average quality code and some white supremacist homophobic asshole with every shitty view possible to have give me some outstanding awesome quality code that is the one i will take hands down, without a second thought. Sure i don't share his views at all but his work is quantifiable better and that is all that matter since (in this particular case) code doesn't have views, its just code

Also those CoC are mostly focused on the views of the US and some EU "extra sensitive" countries have this days but outside those places the number of people that share those views are very small and for most of us is pretty far from "common sense". (yes i'm not in the US or the EU) talking in this context(in other contexts we may have common grounds)

[Volta]

I consider this one to be offensive.

I consider CoC to be offensive.

Bringing up religion and burning people with fire....come on now.

Now you want to censorship religion and don't allow religious people to talk about holocaust?

[Volta]

oiaohm
The part about cannon fonder was really good one! Only religious person could bring something like that. However, I wouldn't allow my dumb teammates to become a cannon fonder. I would give them orders, so they could stay as safe as possible. This is how it works in armies of civilized countries. This is also the difference between us. It's environment that shapes correct behavior not some artificial CoC. I took examples from other person comments, so they could be different than exact CoC from project you talk about, but the rule remains the same. Furthermore, I mentioned christians and jews in positive way, so it seems your way dealing with emotions doesn't work as intended. Another thing is there are people for whom religion is a big part of their life. Do you want to shut their mouths and tell them their religion have nothing to do with coding or CoC? You're simply mistaken.

[skeevy420]

I consider CoC to be offensive.


Now you want to censorship religion and don't allow religious people to talk about holocaust?

Calling a discussion about something a "christian jewish" meeting and then saying in a following sentence that those you disagree with should be burned is not discussing the holocaust or religion in any shape or form. it's using stereotypes about religion as an insult followed up with felony assault.

That's one of the most retarded moving of the goal posts I've come across in a while