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  • #41
    Originally posted by ssokolow View Post

    If you've spent that much money, I doubt you'll be swayed but, for others, you don't need bit-perfect 192KHz/24bit audio.

    The reason 192/24 sounds better is because they generally put more care into mastering when they sell you 192/24 audio and, surround vs. stereo aside, it'd sound just as good if they sold you a CD-quality (44.1/16) downmix made with the same degree of care from the same master. Aside from being an indicator that they probably put more effort into mastering properly, 192/24 is just intended as a temporary format for mastering and mixing to give the equipment and filters more wiggle room to avoid rounding errors and other kinds of degradation as the audio engineers apply various different stages of processing on the recording.

    Monty from Xiph.org (the guy who came up with Ogg Vorbis) wrote a lengthy and heavily-cited article on the details of this.
    I will respectively disagree with you. As mentioned in my other comment, there are constructive and destructive interference that effect the waves we can hear. I also have done testing on the very thing you have mentioned and I can hear a difference up to 96Khz 24bit and and others that I have tested. I have not tested anyone including myself that could tell a difference between 192Khz and 96Khz though maybe I don't have the equipment for it. I didn't tell them before which levels they were hearing and they could tell. Yes it must be mastered correctly but rather than read internet articles a person needs to actually listen and see if they can tell a difference. A person might not have good enough equipment, listen close enough or just not have the hearing that can tell a difference.

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    • #42
      Originally posted by vsteel View Post
      I will respectively disagree with you. As mentioned in my other comment, there are constructive and destructive interference that effect the waves we can hear. I also have done testing on the very thing you have mentioned and I can hear a difference up to 96Khz 24bit and and others that I have tested. I have not tested anyone including myself that could tell a difference between 192Khz and 96Khz though maybe I don't have the equipment for it. I didn't tell them before which levels they were hearing and they could tell. Yes it must be mastered correctly but rather than read internet articles a person needs to actually listen and see if they can tell a difference. A person might not have good enough equipment, listen close enough or just not have the hearing that can tell a difference.
      You are completely wrong. Interference does not change frequency.

      Mind you, I trust you that you hear a difference here, but it's not because it's "higher quality". In fact, it's the opposite. It's probably because of aliasing. In short, the signal is worse at 96khz than 44khz or whatever.

      So the difference you hear is because the 96khz is degraded and has aliasing from higher frequencies.

      Sorry to burst your bubble. Just physics and math. No amount of snake oil will change that.

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      • #43
        Originally posted by Weasel View Post
        You are completely wrong. Interference does not change frequency.

        Mind you, I trust you that you hear a difference here, but it's not because it's "higher quality". In fact, it's the opposite. It's probably because of aliasing. In short, the signal is worse at 96khz than 44khz or whatever.

        So the difference you hear is because the 96khz is degraded and has aliasing from higher frequencies.

        Sorry to burst your bubble. Just physics and math. No amount of snake oil will change that.
        Sir, I have an issue with you using the term "aliasing". In signal processing aliasing means artifacts caused by sampling a signal at a lower frequency than the Nyquist theorem states as the minimal frequency required to reproduce the signal in question. Therefore it's mathematically *impossible* to *introduce* aliasing by *increasing* the sampling frequency for the same input. Even moreso since outside highly-specialized lab equipment (Brüel & Kjær) I've never seen a microphone that can reliably work beyond 20 kHz (we tended to use Behringer ECM8000 - very nice up to 20kHz, useless after that).
        While I cannot rule out that every single 96kHz record out there is mastered using microphones that can pick up noises at 48kHz and higher and somehow the people doing the recording didn't know about it and forgot to use an anti-aliasing filter, I find that higly unlikely. Heck, I'd find it surprising to find aliasing on a regular 44kHz-sampled audio file, unless there was incompetence involved.

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        • #44
          Originally posted by rewik View Post
          Sir, I have an issue with you using the term "aliasing". In signal processing aliasing means artifacts caused by sampling a signal at a lower frequency than the Nyquist theorem states as the minimal frequency required to reproduce the signal in question. Therefore it's mathematically *impossible* to *introduce* aliasing by *increasing* the sampling frequency for the same input. Even moreso since outside highly-specialized lab equipment (Brüel & Kjær) I've never seen a microphone that can reliably work beyond 20 kHz (we tended to use Behringer ECM8000 - very nice up to 20kHz, useless after that).
          While I cannot rule out that every single 96kHz record out there is mastered using microphones that can pick up noises at 48kHz and higher and somehow the people doing the recording didn't know about it and forgot to use an anti-aliasing filter, I find that higly unlikely. Heck, I'd find it surprising to find aliasing on a regular 44kHz-sampled audio file, unless there was incompetence involved.
          It's more likely that the problem is being caused by either a resampling algorithm never having been tested for ultrasonic frequencies (eg. trying to use something only ever tested for 48KHz to downsample 192KHz to 96KHz and triggering a bug) or speakers not rated for ultrasonics behaving badly when driven with certain combinations of frequencies.

          (Reminds me of that explanation I once received for the myth that it's impossible to get "warm" audio out of a CD and digital amplifier. Apparently it got its start when, in the early days of CDs, audio engineers forgot to omit the "boost the high frequencies to compensate for vinyl limitations" step when mastering CDs, resulting in a harsh sound when the CD accurately reproduced what was put into it. That said, I'd love to see someone design and code/build a distortion filter to offer the vinyl+tube sound on any digital audio with the push of a button.)
          ssokolow
          Senior Member
          Last edited by ssokolow; 04 February 2019, 08:42 AM.

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          • #45
            Pinging Michael. Spurious spam flag on a linkless post again.

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            • #46
              Originally posted by rewik View Post
              Sir, I have an issue with you using the term "aliasing". In signal processing aliasing means artifacts caused by sampling a signal at a lower frequency than the Nyquist theorem states as the minimal frequency required to reproduce the signal in question. Therefore it's mathematically *impossible* to *introduce* aliasing by *increasing* the sampling frequency for the same input. Even moreso since outside highly-specialized lab equipment (Brüel & Kjær) I've never seen a microphone that can reliably work beyond 20 kHz (we tended to use Behringer ECM8000 - very nice up to 20kHz, useless after that).
              No, aliasing means that frequencies alias some other region that they aren't supposed to. It's in the name. Your DAC may alias high frequency content if it's cheap, or broken, or whatever. Same with speakers/headphones/monitors.

              Here educate yourself: https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-a...what-causes-it

              I'm talking about the aliasing that happens in the DAC, when it converts to analog, not digital aliasing. For example almost every integrated DAC/soundcard in motherboards will alias above 16khz. Yes you "hear" a tone above 16khz alright, so you think they're super good, but it's not higher, it starts to sound like Shepard Tone actually, due to aliasing. That doesn't mean it's "quality" but casual normies won't even know the difference.

              And I will drop the bomb which is based on 100% fact, whether you (anyone who reads) like it or not: If you hear stuff above 20khz, you are either lying, or you hear aliasing from the DAC or speakers. Period.

              Don't come with or "golden ears", you're not a dog, this is a biological fact. There are tests you can perform, you know, if you truly think you can hear like a dog, I'm sure you will break the Guiness World Record and become famous so go do the tests, unless you know it's pure nonsense and you're deceiving yourself.
              Weasel
              Senior Member
              Last edited by Weasel; 04 February 2019, 12:54 PM.

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              • #47
                Originally posted by Weasel View Post
                No, aliasing means that frequencies alias some other region that they aren't supposed to
                While this is true, the person you are throwing it at did not contest that. What that person said is "Increasing the bandwidth cannot result in more aliasing than lower bandwidth". And that is true.

                Originally posted by Weasel View Post
                Your DAC may alias high frequency content if it's cheap, or broken, or whatever.
                That has nothing to due with a cheap or broken DAC but is just the nature of digital to analog sampling. Every DAC is bandwidth limit, in audio usually with a lower frequency of 0. So every signal you give it will be folded into that. If you have a digital signal width a higher bandwidth than that, you need to resample that first to get it even into the DAC and hence you have to adjust the frequency range with a digital low pass. If you do not do that, you will get the same aliasing you would get from a ADC with wrongly configured anti aliasing filter because the two signals are indistinguishable from a low bandwidth perspective.

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                • #48
                  Originally posted by Weasel View Post
                  And I will drop the bomb which is based on 100% fact, whether you (anyone who reads) like it or not: If you hear stuff above 20khz, you are either lying, or you hear aliasing from the DAC or speakers. Period.
                  This I am sorry to have to say is right in most cases there is one special case where what you said is wrong..

                  There is only one case where a human will be hearing above 20Khz. To hear above 20khz you have to have had surgery to treat glue ear and it was decide to do a particular form of the operation resulting in a resonance tube being created in side your ear the result is a hear able 1khz block somewhere between 20khz to 25khz due to that being resonated into a lower range. I have had this done I have hearing 21khz to 22khz this is particularly bad when someone blows a silent dog whistle rated at 100db inside that range and basically drops me to ground in pain..

                  Something people are not aware of who don't have this is high power 150db silent dog whistles are 20khz to 22khz you do not want to hear in that range and go anywhere a dog park because some idiot will be using them wrong. Basically hearing higher than 20khz suxs big time as it restricts where you can go due to usage of dog whistles .. Yes this also explains when people don't know what they are doing they will be blowing and blowing a silent dog whistle and the dog is staying 100 metres away from them as the dog is not mad enough to come up to point blank on a 150db noise source..

                  Ultrasonic tape measures are 22.5 to 25khz can can be over 160db. Ultrasonic cleaners are normally 25khz at times well over 200db. Basically above the area of normal human hearing is quite a nosily place.

                  So hearing over 20Khz is a pain in the ass and will place restrictions on where you can go. The process is done because in particular cases of glue ear it results in getting 99% of normal hearing range functional instead of 60/70 without the built in resonance tube.

                  Most people who claim they can hear about 20Khz are lies. The ones like me who really can wish we could not and absolutely would not want over 20khz out our sound systems as hearing a tone up in that range is normally go to high alert and find the source to move away from sound source to avoid getting hurt by it..

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                  • #49
                    Originally posted by pininety View Post
                    That has nothing to due with a cheap or broken DAC but is just the nature of digital to analog sampling. Every DAC is bandwidth limit, in audio usually with a lower frequency of 0. So every signal you give it will be folded into that. If you have a digital signal width a higher bandwidth than that, you need to resample that first to get it even into the DAC and hence you have to adjust the frequency range with a digital low pass. If you do not do that, you will get the same aliasing you would get from a ADC with wrongly configured anti aliasing filter because the two signals are indistinguishable from a low bandwidth perspective.
                    Again, I'm not talking about the digital aliasing. The analog filters (low pass) are not "exact" and neither is the conversion. That's why the quality of the DAC even matters.

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                    • #50
                      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                      This I am sorry to have to say is right in most cases there is one special case where what you said is wrong..

                      There is only one case where a human will be hearing above 20Khz. To hear above 20khz you have to have had surgery to treat glue ear and it was decide to do a particular form of the operation resulting in a resonance tube being created in side your ear the result is a hear able 1khz block somewhere between 20khz to 25khz due to that being resonated into a lower range.
                      That's aliasing. You don't hear above 20khz, it just gets converted (resonated) to 1khz.

                      It's no different than "seeing" x-rays by converting it to visible light. You still don't see x-rays and there's no point in making screens emit them. No point even if you have such a "x-ray to visible light converter".

                      Instead of resonating it into 1khz, you could embed it directly into the source material and have it aliased into 1khz automatically in the material. Then no glue needed and everyone can hear it! With the x-ray analogy, just put it directly in the freaking visible light instead of having it emit x-rays and then require people to use a converter.

                      Originally posted by oiaohm View Post
                      Something people are not aware of who don't have this is high power 150db silent dog whistles are 20khz to 22khz you do not want to hear in that range and go anywhere a dog park because some idiot will be using them wrong. Basically hearing higher than 20khz suxs big time as it restricts where you can go due to usage of dog whistles .. Yes this also explains when people don't know what they are doing they will be blowing and blowing a silent dog whistle and the dog is staying 100 metres away from them as the dog is not mad enough to come up to point blank on a 150db noise source..

                      Ultrasonic tape measures are 22.5 to 25khz can can be over 160db. Ultrasonic cleaners are normally 25khz at times well over 200db. Basically above the area of normal human hearing is quite a nosily place.
                      I don't know if you're serious or not, but those numbers are too insane.

                      A freaking jet engine is around 140db from up close. 146db is double that, and every +6 is double.

                      200db is like... 1000 times louder than a jet engine. You sure about that?

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