Wine 4.0 Release Preparations Begin For Much Improved Windows Games / Apps On Linux

[oiaohm]

Come back with another wall of text when you can query the position of a window under Wayland or tell it at what position to be, without a virtual desktop.

X11 protocol core cannot do that either. You are using extension to query position or window or tell window what position it should be under X11. This is the windows manager extension that causes wine all kinds of trouble for being broken..
Wayland design means that window positions are relative to a window. This is to prevent the classic I am running application and pop up appears on wrong window under X11. Yes if you want to use full screen positions under wayland you need a full screen window. Is this in fact different to X11. The wayland difference is instead of the windows manager creating the virtual desktop for you if you want to use screen relative positions you need to create the virtual desktop yourself with a full screen window. Weasel says without using a virtual desktop in fact windows position under X11 does not exist without the windows manager creating a virtual desktop be this the default in the X11 server or the loaded windows manager. So without virtual desktop query position of window under X11 does not work either. Have you not noticed Weasel under X11 at times your application requests position 0.0 and really gets something like 0,100 because the X11 windows manager has offset the top corner. Basically Weasel is the common anti wayland. They request stuff that is in fact impossible to perform under X11. Yes strictly without a virtual desktop under X11 equals all windows created at 0.0 with no ability to move them at all.

Virtual desktop has to exist to use relative positions with X11 or Wayland. The difference is who creates it. X11 the virtual desktop create is the responsibility of the windows manager. Wayland the virtual desktop create is the responsibility of the application.

Exactly like Xwayland wine could use a invisible virtual desktop. Due to wine being direct control if it virtual desktop this way no cat fighting with different wayland compositor implementations of virtual desktop that wine has to currently under X11 with the windows managers. Why wine includes a virtual desktop mode in the first place is because the X11 windows manager virtual desktop does not always work.

[andre30correia]

Wine improves this year and steam play works well in old games. Wayland don't have any of things needed right know, dual graphics won't work, most of laptops are out of list, gaming is a nightmare, crashes, Mir dead was a big mistake, at least canonical puts efforts where they are needed, touch, graphics and desktop.

[Weasel]

On the wine subject I am looking forwards to when wine does support Wayland. This will solve the X11 caused random startup stall. Yes the random start stall of wine can last 30 mins+. The more you kill wine and attempt to restart application because you think application is frozen the deep into X11 stall hell you are heading. This stall is coming from the way X11 protocol is documented how it should be implemented.

If you watch the video that shmerl linked to the developer says that he could not find a single thing that X11 does right. This is true. X11 does not make a good Linux desktop. Most of the arguments for X11 when you look deeper are lies. Wayland design is either better than X11 or no worse.

Wayland protocol could make a good Linux desktop its lacking maturity in places. Reality is X11 lacks maturity in places in fact all places Wayland lacks maturity plus more just X11 windows managers and applications have a better set of work around.

The reality why X11 looks better is just work arounds not the protocol. X11 protocol is complete garbage.

That must make the Wayland protocol the shit in the garbage.

Come back with another wall of text when you can query the position of a window under Wayland or tell it at what position to be, without a virtual desktop.

As long as X11 can do this and Wayland cannot, it proves it's below it in the shithole hierarchy. Really simple.

[Weasel]

Ok, I develop applications, and you know what? The Wayland devs are wrong. Applications should absolutely have control over their own window positions.

They're not just wrong, they're downright retarded.

[Weasel]

The need for Wayland was explained so many times

The need for missing features that are essential on the desktop have also been explained many times. Not like Wayland devs care tho, that's why nobody cares about your "need for Wayland" when the devs are so stubborn.

[Weasel]

I want to use Wayland, but the progress is very slow. Besides bugs that plague compositors and lacking features in them, such heavy hitters like Firefox and Wine are still not there yet (Firefox is getting there though).

It's not the fault of the "heavy hitters" that the protocol is a crippled pile of crap in terms of essential features missing.

[Weasel]

4.0 is going to be a good release but i am a little sad no real progress towards Wayland support was made.

You should be happy they don't waste time on that crippled crap that won't even work.

[CuriousTommy]

Ok, I develop applications, and you know what? The Wayland devs are wrong. Applications should absolutely have control over their own window positions.

In my personal opinion, this should be an option that the user can decide on.

[gamerk2]

Unfortunately, Wine requires some features that Wayland does not allow by design. I recommend you read this comment. If the wine developers were to implement Wayland support, you would probably have to use the virtual desktop. With that being said, I do wonder if the Wine devs can successfully communicate with the various compositing window managers and implement a Wine on Wayland interface (similar to X on Wayland).

One problem is for example that a program can not specify the location of a newly created window. This doesn't sound very problematic at first, until you notice that drop-down / popup menus are also just normal windows on Windows. The solution that Wayland provides for this is not really compatible with the Win32 API. I therefore talked with some Wayland developers and there is no chance of fixing this in the future. It is part of their concept that applications should not have control over the window position and similar settings.

Ok, I develop applications, and you know what? The Wayland devs are wrong. Applications should absolutely have control over their own window positions.

[oiaohm]

Absolutely not. Those who are against, or don't just blindly accept it have realized that Wayland isn't a direct replacement for X neither it is suitable for the Linux desktop, with its multitude of window managers, without a single implementation to build upon.

There was not a single implementation to build on top since start of X11 as well for windows managers. Something wine runs into is that all the different windows managers implement X11 windows manager specification differently. So there is not a single implementation to build upon with X11 with Windows managers.

https://github.com/swaywm/wlroots Other than gnome/kde lot of the other windows managers are going the wlroots path quite a bit. So build windows manager issue may naturally sort it self out under wayland. Hopefully reducing from X11 few hundred to 4. KDE with QT, Gnome solution, libweston and wlroots.

Wine includes multi work around for different windows managers. Even then wine does not support them all and us doing support have to tell people to change windows manager because the windows managers are not based on a single implementation under X11 and have unique breaches of standard.

Wayland compositors I would like to see a lot more compaction than what is going to happen at this stage.

It is needed as much as X12/Xorg 2.x, but I feel we're derailing from the Wine subject.

On the wine subject I am looking forwards to when wine does support Wayland. This will solve the X11 caused random startup stall. Yes the random start stall of wine can last 30 mins+. The more you kill wine and attempt to restart application because you think application is frozen the deep into X11 stall hell you are heading. This stall is coming from the way X11 protocol is documented how it should be implemented.

If you watch the video that shmerl linked to the developer says that he could not find a single thing that X11 does right. This is true. X11 does not make a good Linux desktop. Most of the arguments for X11 when you look deeper are lies. Wayland design is either better than X11 or no worse.

Wayland protocol could make a good Linux desktop its lacking maturity in places. Reality is X11 lacks maturity in places in fact all places Wayland lacks maturity plus more just X11 windows managers and applications have a better set of work around.

The reality why X11 looks better is just work arounds not the protocol. X11 protocol is complete garbage.

The work on supporting wine on Android that is progressing is also doing framework work required to Wayland support. So there has been progress in the direction of wayland support.

http://x12.org/x12org/about/asc-x12-about.cfm The reality is X12 name is taken. Wayland would have been called X12 if X12 was not already taken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuA1vBu-NVc

Yes X12 has nothing to-do with X11. Also X12 is also a fairly horrible protocol.