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Mozilla Begins Slowly Enabling WebRender For Some Users

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  • #11
    Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post

    There is some truth in that statement. Indeed the graphics stack on windows is better than Linux currently, and it has always been this way for decades, let's not hide behind our fingers here.
    Where did you get this? For all I know the situation is the opposite. Former Valve developer back in 2014 have complained about AMD and Intel proprietary drivers, both on Windows and GNU/Linux. At the same time he praised GNU/Linux's Intel GPU drivers. He didn't try AMD FOSS driver, but these guys back in 2013 did praise Mesa, including the AMD's r600g one.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by treba View Post

      While I agree on that concerning direct2d vs opengl in firefox today, AFAIK webrender uses opengl everywhere (although they at least consider switching to gfx-rs). So concerning users using the proprietary nvidia driver, the difference shouldn't be that big between windows and linux. Secondly, radeonsi is better than the proprietary amd opengl driver on windows. Therefore it should actually be easier to support amd on linux than on windows or mac. And the mesa intel drivers are also better than the mac os drivers. I might be wrong, but I thought that this is also a reason why valve doesn't support proton on mac atm.
      Apple completely screwed up the drivers in 10.13.6 which has broken multiple applications and breaks webrender (it also adds some nice effects like green coloured static when waking the mac from sleep), as quite a few macs are being made 'legacy' and will not get updated past 10.13.x it is unlikely to see webrender enabled on macOS until 10.13.7 is released.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by Hi-Angel View Post
        Where did you get this? For all I know the situation is the opposite. Former Valve developer back in 2014 have complained about AMD and Intel proprietary drivers, both on Windows and GNU/Linux. At the same time he praised GNU/Linux's Intel GPU drivers. He didn't try AMD FOSS driver, but these guys back in 2013 did praise Mesa, including the AMD's r600g one.
        Don't go full Linux-zealot mode on me pal. First of all, the keyword here is "graphics STACK", not just MESA driver. Second, back in 2013 MESA was at a very, very poor state, regarding API parity, speed, and feature support. Yes MESA even back then had some benefits, like better standard compliance, but let us not fool ourselves, we couldn't play the vast majority of modern 3D games on MESA back then. If you don't believe me, try running modern games using a 2013 version of MESA, see how that works out for you.

        Believing BLATANT LIES about GNU/Linux, won't make the Linux desktop better. Actually acknowledging the situation, comming to terms with it, and trying to improve it, will.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post

          Don't go full Linux-zealot mode on me pal. First of all, the keyword here is "graphics STACK", not just MESA driver. Second, back in 2013 MESA was at a very, very poor state, regarding API parity, speed, and feature support. Yes MESA even back then had some benefits, like better standard compliance, but let us not fool ourselves, we couldn't play the vast majority of modern 3D games on MESA back then. If you don't believe me, try running modern games using a 2013 version of MESA, see how that works out for you.

          Believing BLATANT LIES about GNU/Linux, won't make the Linux desktop better. Actually acknowledging the situation, comming to terms with it, and trying to improve it, will.
          Listen, dude, I provided you with links, you replied with insults and aggression — sure a way to win a discussion. Back in 2013 I was a newbie to GNU/Linux, and I've no idea what's the state was in general — judging by the Dolphin devs' post that I linked, it was very well.

          My only interesting personal experience from 2013-2014 was that Flatout 2 on Windows was lagging down to 3-5 FPS when there was a smoke around; but worked very well on Ubuntu with wine and r600g driver (though it was a bit slower due to wine).

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          • #15
            Originally posted by Hi-Angel View Post
            Listen, dude, I provided you with links, you replied with insults and aggression — sure a way to win a discussion. Back in 2013 I was a newbie to GNU/Linux, and I've no idea what's the state was in general — judging by the Dolphin devs' post that I linked, it was very well.

            My only interesting personal experience from 2013-2014 was that Flatout 2 on Windows was lagging down to 3-5 FPS when there was a smoke around; but worked very well on Ubuntu with wine and r600g driver (though it was a bit slower due to wine).
            "Providing links" means nothing if said links are irrelevant or the argument you are trying to make is non sequitur from said links... Also i didn't insult you.

            I don't need to provide a "link". You can go to MESA site yourself, get a 2013 version, compile it, and try to run with it modern games, like Tomb Raider (2013) for example... You realize Flatout 2 was a pretty ancient game by 2013 standards, don't you?

            I am not trying to "win" anything here. I am just stating the facts. You are the one who goes "zealot mode" trying to convince us that the Linux graphics stack is so awesome and Windows are behind...

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            • #16
              Originally posted by Anvil View Post

              its basically only gonna be for Windows, the Graphics stack on windows is far better than Linux will ever be, so Mozilla enabling WR by Default on Linux will take a lot longer i would think.
              If they want a solid graphics stack to test this on, then why don't they test it on macOS first? I'm no fan of macOS, but a least they have a small set of supported graphics hardware with solid drivers, so it should be better for testing than Windows.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by Vistaus View Post
                If they want a solid graphics stack to test this on, then why don't they test it on macOS first? I'm no fan of macOS, but a least they have a small set of supported graphics hardware with solid drivers, so it should be better for testing than Windows.
                Yeah I heard their OpenGL drivers are especially excellent.

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by treba View Post
                  And then they might finally make hw video acceleration on linux a reality
                  Any news on that front would be more than overdue! It is 2018, AV1 is about to take over the video streaming world soon enough, but we can't even get hw accelerated video on Firefox and Chrome on H.264! Sorry for my rant, but I don't get it why this item is not higher on the priority list of the developers involved with this. A great Linux desktop experience on Notebooks would be awesome to have. Unfortunately this blocks mobile usage quite a bit. Fortunately, Tumbleweed and other distros have a patched Chromium available to get it to work at least on VA-API. But I don't get it either why these patches haven't made it into upstream yet.

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                  • #19
                    Originally posted by TemplarGR View Post

                    Don't go full Linux-zealot mode on me pal. First of all, the keyword here is "graphics STACK", not just MESA driver. Second, back in 2013 MESA was at a very, very poor state, regarding API parity, speed, and feature support. Yes MESA even back then had some benefits, like better standard compliance, but let us not fool ourselves, we couldn't play the vast majority of modern 3D games on MESA back then. If you don't believe me, try running modern games using a 2013 version of MESA, see how that works out for you.

                    Believing BLATANT LIES about GNU/Linux, won't make the Linux desktop better. Actually acknowledging the situation, comming to terms with it, and trying to improve it, will.
                    Ok let's talk about the graphics stack then.... Desktop performance, specifically xrender. Video acceleration, specifically vaapi. 3d performance, specificaly openGL... In -ALL- of these areas Linux has dominated in both overall performance and compliance with standards. If you don't believe it then benchmark against -any- other OS and see it for yourself. Facts whether you like them or not. And all of these facts have been in place since about 2012 roughly. The -only- issue was whether -you- bought hardware before it was supported well enough.

                    EDIT: Wine has -never- had good compatibility and it still doesn't and there still is no indication that it ever will. I still have hope in the Vulkan-DX layers, but it's fading.... Perhaps what you're really compaining about is wine?

                    EDIT: And BTW, if you did run a 2013 vesion of mesa on a card that was already well supported in that version of mesa, it would actually run quite well indeed. On Linux you -HAVE- to choose hardware that is -already- well supported. If you don't, then it's your own damn fault that you chose hardware that wasn't already well supported.
                    Last edited by duby229; 09-14-2018, 12:51 PM.

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by duby229 View Post

                      Ok let's talk about the graphics stack then.... Desktop performance, specifically xrender. Video acceleration, specifically vaapi. 3d performance, specificaly openGL... In -ALL- of these areas Linux has dominated in both overall performance and compliance with standards. If you don't believe it then benchmark against -any- other OS and see it for yourself. Facts whether you like them or not. And all of these facts have been in place since about 2012 roughly. The -only- issue was whether -you- bought hardware before it was supported well enough.

                      EDIT: Wine has -never- had good compatibility and it still doesn't and there still is no indication that it ever will. I still have hope in the Vulkan-DX layers, but it's fading.... Perhaps what you're really compaining about is wine?

                      EDIT: And BTW, if you did run a 2013 vesion of mesa on a card that was already well supported in that version of mesa, it would actually run quite well indeed. On Linux you -HAVE- to choose hardware that is -already- well supported. If you don't, then it's your own damn fault that you chose hardware that wasn't already well supported.
                      I could see the argument that the Nvidia blob had parity back then (for the most part), but, seriously, the AMD blob was terrible, and mesa, while stable-ish, was still stuck at OpenGL3.1 for the majority of the year until 10 came out at the end adding 3.3 support (the spec already being at 4.3/4.4 in 2013).

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