Flatpak Gets New FreeDesktop SDK 18.08 Runtime

[starshipeleven]

Yes starshipeleven we do not need Android because it's only the most used OS in the world.

For the nth time....

Who is going to pay? How do you monetize this large investment? Are you afraid of talking of marketing now that it's going against your "ideas"?

I just keep repeating you why it does not and will never happen. It does not make economic sense to do so, and it is far too complex to do without some economic support.

You say the only way people could use any operating system is if someone actually installed it for them...

Because it's true. Most people don't want to understand computers. It's just a tool and as long as it does what they need they won't want to fuck with it.

Assuming that people cannot install things for themselves if the installation process is easy and only some clicks away while following clear instructions...
....
And then I wonder how Chrome is the most used browser in Windows since it does not come pre-instaled in any Windows release...

installing an OS is as easy as clicking on an icon... yeah right. You have no fucking idea, kid.

And this is for Windows, The Land Where Everything Always Works (tm), as long as it is less than 3 years old anyway.

Have you ever installed linux on random hardware? Tried to install Ubuntu LTS on new devices? Or are you imagining a world where the installation is always simple and painless? Because the real world isn't like this, not even on windows.

And when someone like me tries to shake things up by stating (obvious) things and bringing new ideas,

Yeah, running Android applications on windows is a new idea. We aren't in 2015 anymore, dude. There have been at least 2 failed efforts at pulling it off. And it wasn't because people like you were coming up with "new" ideas 3 years later, but because people like you didn't pay a cent for the development.

Meanwhile, projects like Ubports about keeping Ubuntu Phone kinda alive have been funded and they are operational and at work for their goal since at least a full year. I strongly suspect that they are going to fail eventually, but whatever, they will fail honorably at least.

Ah yes, Ubports is the third project that also aims to have a working Android environment to run Android apps. But it's a "new" idea huh?

Yeah, 1% or so of market share with a better product at the price of free is the dream!

Better on what scale, better by what point of view? Why are you uncapable of seeing things from a different perspective than your own?

For example, Android is plain better for pretty much everything a normal consumer would want to do (and numbers also show this). Hell, it was designed to do that, and it does not have 3 decades of legacy to carry over.

You can keep on blaming everything and try to put down anyone who brings a new vision, you can keep on saying all is great. But at the end of the day you look at the reality of numbers, and those cruel bastards don't lie.
Don't be afraid of listening to others even if their ideas and concepts trouble yours, most of all there is always a better way of doing anything at all.

Really, cut this semi-inspirational crap, you are only making a fool out of yourself.

What you want is just people working for free, to satisfy your childish dreams of world domination. That's not how opensource works. That's not how market strategies work either. You don't aim at market domination for its own sake.

Opensource is companies doing stuff that benefits THEM and then sharing (server-ish stuff), or people doing it for fun (which means relatively small projects).

Words won't change reality. Stop posting bullshit already.

[pemartins]

Yes starshipeleven we do not need Android because it's only the most used OS in the world. Why would we need 3 million and 300 thousand applications coming at once with Android when you say we already have about all Linux applications in flathub?... Yeah, who needs an extra 3 million and 300 thousand when he already has 200?
A waste of someone's time and money for sure. Way better to have some more music player and note taking apps, that's where the money is!

You say the only way people could use any operating system is if someone actually installed it for them... Assuming that people cannot install things for themselves if the installation process is easy and only some clicks away while following clear instructions... And then I wonder how Chrome is the most used browser in Windows since it does not come pre-instaled in any Windows release...
Hum, an act of God maybe? Or is it that maybe we are in the click-and-done era and everybody can do anything if clicking is all that it takes? (and not the command line obviously!)

And when someone like me tries to shake things up by stating (obvious) things and bringing new ideas, I'm only "part of the problem" because "FOSS does not need more dumb ideas born out of ignorance of basic marketing principles, there is already enough of that holding it down.". Yeah, 1% or so of market share with a better product at the price of free is the dream!

You can keep on blaming everything and try to put down anyone who brings a new vision, you can keep on saying all is great. But at the end of the day you look at the reality of numbers, and those cruel bastards don't lie.
Don't be afraid of listening to others even if their ideas and concepts trouble yours, most of all there is always a better way of doing anything at all.

[starshipeleven]

starshipeleven reading your answers is how one understands the phenomenon of Linux having a better basic product, being free and having only 1% or so of the market.

Better product for who? To do what? On what scale? Give a Ubuntu disk to some random person and tell them to "install" it in their PC. 99% won't understand what you want them to do.

Until you insist in using nonsense assumptions in your reasoning, you won't understand how the world works.

Just because you have strong beliefs in the current FOSS system

FOSS never even mattered one bit in the discussion. The discussion was about how wrong were your "ideas" about how someone should throw away their time and money to add support to Android applications with little chances of ever seeing return of the investment, and how that would make Linux more interesting for people that does not even care about what an OS is.

And then you look at the global market share and it shows the reality as it is, which clearly states that there must be a better way because it is not working fine.

Yeah, and you are part of the problem. FOSS does not need more dumb ideas born out of ignorance of basic marketing principles, there is already enough of that holding it down.

Marketing and sales teams need to know the products from inside out. If you don't know a product well and don't believe in it you won't be able to sell it. This is basic marketing and sales.
The sales person does not need to be able to design and assemble a pipe in the product, but has to know that that pipe exists and has to know why that pipe exists.

True to an extent. Again, it's a matter of target.
If the marketing people were supposed to deal with people that can understand more than a very general overview of the thing they are selling, yeah they need to have this in-depth knowledge.

And that's a specialized form of salesperson that is both a trained technician/engineer (or at least some highly skilled nerd) AND a salesperson.

But most salespeople are dealing with mass market, or management or any other target that can't really comprehend much of the product anyway (most even struggle to understand how to operate it), so they are fine with some slides detailing very roughly what is going on, as they will rely mostly on other things (looking "trustworthy" or "secure" or talking of money or whatever) to actually sell.

Otherwise you'll have episodes like that one in which Blackberry's CEO decided to do an interview presentation of the Blackberry Priv

That's one case of marketing people talking to skilled audience, and a case where you DO want the specialized hybrid salesperson with technical training.

There is a reason if decent companies have both generic marketing people and contacts with "influencers" aka reviewers that are skilled enough to actually talk and sound convincing to the skilled elite of their markets.

Yeah the result was that shortly after Blackberry stopped making phones and now just rents/lends/sells/gives/whatever the Blackberry name for other to use in phones they make.

No, screwups like that are hilarious but not particularly dangerous per-se.

Blackberry made a ton of mistakes, much like Kodak refusing to switch to digital cameras until it was waay too late to be saved.

[pemartins]

starshipeleven reading your answers is how one understands the phenomenon of Linux having a better basic product, being free and having only 1% or so of the market. When we try to fight and/or deny reality we just get ran over by it. Just because you have strong beliefs in the current FOSS system does not mean that there could not be a better way and that you are doing things right and that reality is as you wish it was. And then you look at the global market share and it shows the reality as it is, which clearly states that there must be a better way because it is not working fine. Whether one chooses to do a analysis/introspection to change and evolve, or one chooses to deny reality, that's one's choice.
Please always keep this statement with you: "don't try to be right, try instead to be rich".

Marketing and sales teams don't need to know implementation details.

Marketing and sales teams need to know the products from inside out. If you don't know a product well and don't believe in it you won't be able to sell it. This is basic marketing and sales.
The sales person does not need to be able to design and assemble a pipe in the product, but has to know that that pipe exists and has to know why that pipe exists.

Otherwise you'll have episodes like that one in which Blackberry's CEO decided to do an interview presentation of the Blackberry Priv: you have a CEO trying to promote the product that could save his company by not knowing how to use it, not knowing how to even turn it on and by saying that "it has Google"...
Yeah the result was that shortly after Blackberry stopped making phones and now just rents/lends/sells/gives/whatever the Blackberry name for other to use in phones they make.

[nanonyme]

I hope that applications like Steam and Blender move to that runtime fast... Mesa is quite old in the 1.6 runtime (18.0.4). And I hope that Mesa gets updated more regualary... sad to see that NVidia drivers are getting way more love than Mesa ones.

Steam just did

[fuzz]

Splitting front end and back end in a single final product in marketing terms means incomplete job and nothing else. It's a bad job, plain and simple. You can even be delivering the cure for cancer that still no more than 1% tops of the possible clients would even consider looking at it.

By your logic, developers should stop making REST and GraphQL APIs . Marketing and sales teams don't need to know implementation details.

[starshipeleven]

The first thing you need to do before starting a project is to find out what the market needs.

We need to use a more specific terminology than "needs".

Because what you want is being paid, so what you MUST look for is something that the market will be willing to pay your price for.

I state this because you start with movie industry that does do that, and then wander off wanking about Android and stuff.

Do you know how movies in Hollywood are made nowadays?

It's not a "nowadays" thing, they have always been done like that. Which is one of the reason why a large majority of movies at any given time suck balls. Most people is dumb and is therefore easy to entertain. Elites aren't, but they are a minority so they are irrelevant for a pure revenue point of view.

These couple of basics usually fail in open source projects, usually there isn't any marketing study for the need of the project neither the teams are properly built. Usually there is no marketing study at all and no team or at least no complete team.

You are perhaps stating that this isn't very common in commercial projects too? Because I'm not seeing this great efficiency around in commercial projects either.

The main difference is that a company usually has more money behind it, so they have more developing power than opensource projects that may rely on people's free time.

There should be a place where developers could pitch an idea, state what they would need in terms of team and then others could apply. I was once told that github has this but honestly I could never find it.

That's what each project does in its website or README or whatever.
Just stating an intent does not magically make developers appear out of thin air. Especially if you don't have the means to pay them.

About Android, we really need Android on Linux. In Windows you have ten or more Bluestacks alike applications available, in Linux we have zero (Genymotion is no good as an app player). In example this issue alone keeps my mother and my daughter from using Linux. This is a major issue holding back Linux.

Yeah, we really "need" Android. This is the point where you start the handwaving and "need" suddenly flips meaning.

Bluestacks and other applications are paid, and closed source. There is piracy but it's manageable as they aren't huge.

Who would pay for an opensource application when most of the current Linux population (or anyone that can read a tutorial online) can just set up a compile server and distribute a full-feature clone to dumb users?

Google does not care that much about that, as they are selling devices with that software on.

About the store, when I mentioned the need for a 'Linux Google Play Store clone' I meant a place where all Linux apps are available to be installed in any Linux distro. From the top of my mind I'll take the wild guess that Flathub has perhaps a couple of hundred applications.

That's already more or less "all linux apps" man. Bulk of other stuff is commandline tools or specialized applications for workstations, or "music players and note taking applications", if you know what I mean.

Unfortunately we at Linux are many years behind this. Linux lacks organization.

Unfortunatley you are grossly overestimating the amount of major Linux applications, Flathub is already what you ask.

The best market research is asking our daughters, our mothers, our neighbors (the regular Joe) if they like and use and what they would like. And that's the big mistake of the open source community, it keeps on building things for themselves. When you say that you have many friends that use the command line and powershell, you gotta realize that they are part of a specific niche community and are not at all representative of the remaining 99% of the market, which won't use a command line not even if they would get paid to do so.

You talk about market reserch but all you do is handwaving. You really think that having support for Android applications would even matter for that target? Most of such userbase is unaware and does not care (and should not care) about what is an operating system, how to install it, and so on and so forth.

The only way they could use any operating system is if someone actually installed it for them, be it an OEM or their friends/family. You don't sell them an operating sytem, you sell them a device.

Which is where actual companies where someone has a basic grasp of marketing like Google or Microsoft or even Apple are different from handwaving kiddies that should understand the world around them before thinking they know better. They are selling (or has convinced OEMs to sell on their behalf) Windows DEVICES, Android DEVICES, or ChromeOS DEVICES, you know physical hardware running their software. Then they monetize them differently (they get a share on applications and media and serve ads, or use some kind of license fee), but it's still based on DEVICES and not someone hacking around and installing their OS over devices sold with another OS.

Microsoft is in deep shit because their DEVICE sales are decreasing (due to hardware performance not increasing fast enough), Google is supporting their DEVICES for 3 years at most just because that way they can keep selling more DEVICES, not because of other reasons. (most other Android DEVICE manufacuters support their DEVICES for much shorter timescales than that, for the same reasons)

The main issue is that a DEVICE based model works only if you have a certain scale, and the DEVICES you intend to sell aren't grossly overpriced when compared to others of the same kind.
This requires a ton of money, and if you are just making a device that runs Android applications then how the fuck are you going to get that money back?

And even clicking is becoming obsolete, speaking to the Siris and the Alexas is the incoming future.

Again, for the masses that need limited man-machine interaction AND have constant high-ish speed internet access perhaps. That's like saying that everything needs a touchscreen just because some very common classes of modern devices have it, it's bullshit.

[pemartins]

starshipeleven I understand all you answers and point of views, I've read similar over and over through the years. They are the correct answers within the actual system, but the actual system is flawed.

The first thing you need to do before starting a project is to find out what the market needs. Do you know how movies in Hollywood are made nowadays? First they find out what sells or better said what the market is accepting (in example their marketing studies show that there is currently a solid demographic for an action movie involving car racing); then they hire script writers to write a story (script) about what the costumer wants (a movie that has cars and action). And there you go, there you have you 'art'.
But not the seventh art (cinema) because that one died some time ago in terms of artist creativity, the art now in place is the art of marketing. Even when they pick an already finished script from someone, they always change it to match some bs marketing study for some demographic about something.

After you find out what the market needs, you gotta build a team. You gotta build a team, for everything and every place and function, including development from start to finish, marketing and sales team and whatever. Just like a soccer coach building a team to play a championship: he must hire 3 goal-keepers, 2 left-back, 2 right-backs and so on, a couple of assistant coaches, a goal-keeping coach, a masseur, a doctor, an equipment technician and whatever else.
Only when you have the complete team you are ready to start the season.

These couple of basics usually fail in open source projects, usually there isn't any marketing study for the need of the project neither the teams are properly built. Usually there is no marketing study at all and no team or at least no complete team.
There should be a place where developers could pitch an idea, state what they would need in terms of team and then others could apply. I was once told that github has this but honestly I could never find it. And it doesn't matter now because github now belongs to ms.

About Android, we really need Android on Linux. In Windows you have ten or more Bluestacks alike applications available, in Linux we have zero (Genymotion is no good as an app player). In example this issue alone keeps my mother and my daughter from using Linux. This is a major issue holding back Linux.

About the store, when I mentioned the need for a 'Linux Google Play Store clone' I meant a place where all Linux apps are available to be installed in any Linux distro. From the top of my mind I'll take the wild guess that Flathub has perhaps a couple of hundred applications.
One store only and not a couple or 10 or 20 or one for each distro stores, only one single Linux app store and having all Linux applications. Just like Google Play Store (that just does not have some apps that do not match their app criteria).
Unfortunately we at Linux are many years behind this. Linux lacks organization.


Darakusyou should do the following market research someday: go with a friend to a mall and ask 10 randoms (100 would be better) if they like to use a command line. Only if you get really lucky you'll get a positive answer, or even something different than "wtf is a command line?!".
I use the command line because I had to back in the ms-dos days but nowadays no one cares about it. Either it's click-and-done or they don't use it. And that is exactly why Android and iOS are so popular.

The best market research is asking our daughters, our mothers, our neighbors (the regular Joe) if they like and use and what they would like. And that's the big mistake of the open source community, it keeps on building things for themselves. When you say that you have many friends that use the command line and powershell, you gotta realize that they are part of a specific niche community and are not at all representative of the remaining 99% of the market, which won't use a command line not even if they would get paid to do so.
And even clicking is becoming obsolete, speaking to the Siris and the Alexas is the incoming future.

[nanonyme]

stupid vBullettin software is blocking my post for pemartins

Yeah, this is horrible. You also can't message Michael because his message quota is full

[starshipeleven]

stupid vBullettin software is blocking my post for pemartins