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Flatpak Gets New FreeDesktop SDK 18.08 Runtime

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  • #11
    I tried to twice comment about Steam but forum is eating my comments. Rest assured, new runtime is close on roadmap once a severe unrelated bug is fixed
    Please help test https://github.com/flathub/com.valve...team/issues/60
    Last edited by nanonyme; 12 August 2018, 06:28 AM.

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    • #12
      Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
      You don't know what happens when programmers are designing application GUIs right?

      Linux follows the good unix tradition of splitting applications in a backend and a frontend. This allows programmers to actually focus on the real deal (the backend) while programmers with a different skill set can work on the frontend.

      Btw, also Kde Discover (a Gnome Software equivalent for KDE) supports flatpak.
      KDE Discover had issues following deps earlier, I don't know if that's been since fixed. I've been trying to find someone who could actually test this

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      • #13
        So does that mean apps will now not look totally alien compared to my native apps and not throw my desktop settings down the toilet?

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        • #14
          Originally posted by pemartins View Post
          Just wondering when the flatpak team will find out that we're in 2018 so Flatpak can get a GUI.

          You know, the command line died in the beginning of the nineties and the most popular and used tech devices (smartphones) do not even have a keyboard, so... if one day the Linux developers realize this, for sure the Linux market quota of 1% will grow.
          We live in the click-and-done era, people. And even that is ending, the speak-and-done era is taking over. And the command line died in the beginning of the nineties with ms-dos, so why the hell do we keep on holding our Linux back with this basic mistakes?
          Just my 2 cents as a daily bash user.

          Just about all the Linux users I know cite the command line as one of the best features of our favourite OS. A lot of Windows users I know love powershell. I would also argue that Apple switching to a UNIX like system for Macs, along with its powerful command line, was one of the things that brought apple back from the brink and made it enough money to get into the smartphone business and eventually win capitalism. For Linux, if I had to choose between a good GUI and a good TUI, then I'll take the bash friendly option any day.

          Fedora 28 allows you to enable Flathub via GNOME Software, and after you do that you get to manage your flatpaks with clicks, just like you want. There are many things that could be improved on Linux, including flatpaks, but saying that flatpak lacking an official GUI is slowing Linux growth, when the two flagship desktop environments already have GUI package managers that support flatpak, is a little bit silly in my opinion.

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          • #15
            pemartins
            And the command line died in the beginning of the nineties with ms-dos, so why the hell do we keep on holding our Linux back with this basic mistakes?
            I like your trolling style. Impressive.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by pemartins View Post
              Splitting front end and back end in a single final product in marketing terms means incomplete job and nothing else.
              You got it wrong, "splitting front end and back end" means that the backend is a final product, and the frontends are final products.

              You can even be delivering the cure for cancer that still no more than 1% tops of the possible clients would even consider looking at it.
              That's because the backend clients aren't end users perhaps, but distros or other entities that want to integrate the backend in their pre-existing package manager application, like Gnome Software, or KDE Discover.

              The old unix way for sure but... seriously, how many brain surgeons does it take to realize that the model is broken and does not work?
              You know right that there are commercial applications that are just backends or just frontends too? Or that in most applications the team working on the backend is not also working on the front end?

              It requires different skill sets, so it HAS to be done by different people, period. So it makes sense to actually split the codebase too, or even have it done by different projects alltogether. The real "Unix way" is just a collection of good programming practices.

              I really hope that one day Linux programmers will read a marketing book and start working as a team for the whole.
              I really hope that one day all the kids ranting in forums will stop assuming they know better and actually read some marketing book too so they can actually understand the reality around them and not post naive bullshit.

              If that day ever happens the first thing we'll get is a 'Linux Google Play Store clone' for all Linux apps.
              Did you ever visited Flathub in the last decade? It is integrated with Gnome Software and Discover, so if you click on install it will open up these applications to do the leg work.

              This isn't exactly new technology either, OpenSUSE has been doing something similar with their OBS (community supported packages) for ages, you click, it downloads a file that is automatically opened by the Yast system management thing that then proceeds to add repo and install stuff.
              Same for ubuntu and their own stuff, and probably others I don't know about.

              Simultaneously making android apps run on Linux will be top priority, or at least having a working Android app player for Linux. Yes because I hope someday someone sill realize that there are more than 3.300 million Android apps (up to date).
              Then and only then there will be the basics to show the general market that Linux is an option because it offers what the market is looking for.
              Since you seem to be completely oblivious to the reason the only "Android compatibility layer" that didn't go unmaintained after a year is done by Google themselves, and is still for their own products (Chromebooks), I'll disclose this highly guarded secret just for you:

              It would just be working for Google, for free, as we all know that Google Play store is a Google-only source of revenue. You can claim all you want, but If you talk of Android applications that's what it means, giving money to Google one way or another.


              And if/when that day comes and the Linux user base grows exponentially, as so will grow donations for the projects and revenue sources (a 'Linux Google Play Store clone' supported by advertising and donations anyone?). But this is nonsense, I really hope I do not have to explain how multiplying the user base can be synonymous of multiplying the revenue, I really hope things are not that bad.
              The main issue here is the large investment required to get anywhere near that. It simply does not pay back in any reasonable timescale, especially if you rely on donations and "responsible advertising". Especially if you are basing all your success on an Android compatibility layer, that basically routes all profit and avertising to Google.

              There is a reason if Google has made Android itself (and its potential successor Fuchsia OS) opensource with a permissive license, and Microsoft is doing all it can to actually get have a foothold out of the "desktop OS" market. It's not a particularly highly profitable market in this day and age where you can't rely on hardware sales to sell licenses locked to the hardware.

              And what about all companies making Linux-based distros? They live off company service contracts, even Canonical finally got the memo that the consumer OS market won't provide them enough donations and revenue sources (without pissing off their audience like they did with the Amazon tracking debacle for example), and ditched all their Unity DE and convergence and mobile effort overnight to focus more on what actually pays the bills (server features).

              Sorry for being so harsh but by know smooth talk does not seem to take any effect at all, so maybe some hard love will help change mentalities.
              You need to understand that ranting like this in a forum isn't what opensource needs.

              Opensource requires time and resources, just like everything else. The reason it's not getting them is that it's hard to actually profit off it in the consumer market, so you see many hobby projects (the music players and note taking applications you mentioned, for example), and many companies that do it on the side of their core market which is server or company workstations.

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              • #17
                stupid vBullettin software is blocking my post for pemartins

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                • #18
                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  stupid vBullettin software is blocking my post for pemartins
                  Yeah, this is horrible. You also can't message Michael because his message quota is full

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                  • #19
                    starshipeleven I understand all you answers and point of views, I've read similar over and over through the years. They are the correct answers within the actual system, but the actual system is flawed.

                    The first thing you need to do before starting a project is to find out what the market needs. Do you know how movies in Hollywood are made nowadays? First they find out what sells or better said what the market is accepting (in example their marketing studies show that there is currently a solid demographic for an action movie involving car racing); then they hire script writers to write a story (script) about what the costumer wants (a movie that has cars and action). And there you go, there you have you 'art'.
                    But not the seventh art (cinema) because that one died some time ago in terms of artist creativity, the art now in place is the art of marketing. Even when they pick an already finished script from someone, they always change it to match some bs marketing study for some demographic about something.

                    After you find out what the market needs, you gotta build a team. You gotta build a team, for everything and every place and function, including development from start to finish, marketing and sales team and whatever. Just like a soccer coach building a team to play a championship: he must hire 3 goal-keepers, 2 left-back, 2 right-backs and so on, a couple of assistant coaches, a goal-keeping coach, a masseur, a doctor, an equipment technician and whatever else.
                    Only when you have the complete team you are ready to start the season.

                    These couple of basics usually fail in open source projects, usually there isn't any marketing study for the need of the project neither the teams are properly built. Usually there is no marketing study at all and no team or at least no complete team.
                    There should be a place where developers could pitch an idea, state what they would need in terms of team and then others could apply. I was once told that github has this but honestly I could never find it. And it doesn't matter now because github now belongs to ms.

                    About Android, we really need Android on Linux. In Windows you have ten or more Bluestacks alike applications available, in Linux we have zero (Genymotion is no good as an app player). In example this issue alone keeps my mother and my daughter from using Linux. This is a major issue holding back Linux.

                    About the store, when I mentioned the need for a 'Linux Google Play Store clone' I meant a place where all Linux apps are available to be installed in any Linux distro. From the top of my mind I'll take the wild guess that Flathub has perhaps a couple of hundred applications.
                    One store only and not a couple or 10 or 20 or one for each distro stores, only one single Linux app store and having all Linux applications. Just like Google Play Store (that just does not have some apps that do not match their app criteria).
                    Unfortunately we at Linux are many years behind this. Linux lacks organization.


                    Darakusyou should do the following market research someday: go with a friend to a mall and ask 10 randoms (100 would be better) if they like to use a command line. Only if you get really lucky you'll get a positive answer, or even something different than "wtf is a command line?!".
                    I use the command line because I had to back in the ms-dos days but nowadays no one cares about it. Either it's click-and-done or they don't use it. And that is exactly why Android and iOS are so popular.

                    The best market research is asking our daughters, our mothers, our neighbors (the regular Joe) if they like and use and what they would like. And that's the big mistake of the open source community, it keeps on building things for themselves. When you say that you have many friends that use the command line and powershell, you gotta realize that they are part of a specific niche community and are not at all representative of the remaining 99% of the market, which won't use a command line not even if they would get paid to do so.
                    And even clicking is becoming obsolete, speaking to the Siris and the Alexas is the incoming future.

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by pemartins View Post
                      The first thing you need to do before starting a project is to find out what the market needs.
                      We need to use a more specific terminology than "needs".

                      Because what you want is being paid, so what you MUST look for is something that the market will be willing to pay your price for.

                      I state this because you start with movie industry that does do that, and then wander off wanking about Android and stuff.

                      Do you know how movies in Hollywood are made nowadays?
                      It's not a "nowadays" thing, they have always been done like that. Which is one of the reason why a large majority of movies at any given time suck balls. Most people is dumb and is therefore easy to entertain. Elites aren't, but they are a minority so they are irrelevant for a pure revenue point of view.

                      These couple of basics usually fail in open source projects, usually there isn't any marketing study for the need of the project neither the teams are properly built. Usually there is no marketing study at all and no team or at least no complete team.
                      You are perhaps stating that this isn't very common in commercial projects too? Because I'm not seeing this great efficiency around in commercial projects either.

                      The main difference is that a company usually has more money behind it, so they have more developing power than opensource projects that may rely on people's free time.

                      There should be a place where developers could pitch an idea, state what they would need in terms of team and then others could apply. I was once told that github has this but honestly I could never find it.
                      That's what each project does in its website or README or whatever.
                      Just stating an intent does not magically make developers appear out of thin air. Especially if you don't have the means to pay them.

                      About Android, we really need Android on Linux. In Windows you have ten or more Bluestacks alike applications available, in Linux we have zero (Genymotion is no good as an app player). In example this issue alone keeps my mother and my daughter from using Linux. This is a major issue holding back Linux.
                      Yeah, we really "need" Android. This is the point where you start the handwaving and "need" suddenly flips meaning.

                      Bluestacks and other applications are paid, and closed source. There is piracy but it's manageable as they aren't huge.

                      Who would pay for an opensource application when most of the current Linux population (or anyone that can read a tutorial online) can just set up a compile server and distribute a full-feature clone to dumb users?

                      Google does not care that much about that, as they are selling devices with that software on.

                      About the store, when I mentioned the need for a 'Linux Google Play Store clone' I meant a place where all Linux apps are available to be installed in any Linux distro. From the top of my mind I'll take the wild guess that Flathub has perhaps a couple of hundred applications.
                      That's already more or less "all linux apps" man. Bulk of other stuff is commandline tools or specialized applications for workstations, or "music players and note taking applications", if you know what I mean.

                      Unfortunately we at Linux are many years behind this. Linux lacks organization.
                      Unfortunatley you are grossly overestimating the amount of major Linux applications, Flathub is already what you ask.

                      The best market research is asking our daughters, our mothers, our neighbors (the regular Joe) if they like and use and what they would like. And that's the big mistake of the open source community, it keeps on building things for themselves. When you say that you have many friends that use the command line and powershell, you gotta realize that they are part of a specific niche community and are not at all representative of the remaining 99% of the market, which won't use a command line not even if they would get paid to do so.
                      You talk about market reserch but all you do is handwaving. You really think that having support for Android applications would even matter for that target? Most of such userbase is unaware and does not care (and should not care) about what is an operating system, how to install it, and so on and so forth.

                      The only way they could use any operating system is if someone actually installed it for them, be it an OEM or their friends/family. You don't sell them an operating sytem, you sell them a device.

                      Which is where actual companies where someone has a basic grasp of marketing like Google or Microsoft or even Apple are different from handwaving kiddies that should understand the world around them before thinking they know better. They are selling (or has convinced OEMs to sell on their behalf) Windows DEVICES, Android DEVICES, or ChromeOS DEVICES, you know physical hardware running their software. Then they monetize them differently (they get a share on applications and media and serve ads, or use some kind of license fee), but it's still based on DEVICES and not someone hacking around and installing their OS over devices sold with another OS.

                      Microsoft is in deep shit because their DEVICE sales are decreasing (due to hardware performance not increasing fast enough), Google is supporting their DEVICES for 3 years at most just because that way they can keep selling more DEVICES, not because of other reasons. (most other Android DEVICE manufacuters support their DEVICES for much shorter timescales than that, for the same reasons)

                      The main issue is that a DEVICE based model works only if you have a certain scale, and the DEVICES you intend to sell aren't grossly overpriced when compared to others of the same kind.
                      This requires a ton of money, and if you are just making a device that runs Android applications then how the fuck are you going to get that money back?

                      And even clicking is becoming obsolete, speaking to the Siris and the Alexas is the incoming future.
                      Again, for the masses that need limited man-machine interaction AND have constant high-ish speed internet access perhaps. That's like saying that everything needs a touchscreen just because some very common classes of modern devices have it, it's bullshit.

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