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KDE Plasma 5.13 Is Making Great Improvements On Its Wayland Support

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  • #21
    Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
    Or... Nvidia could just have proper Wayland support, which they don't. Other Wayland-based compositors comply with Nvidia's workarounds, but Nvidia is deliberately negligent of proper support, and the KDE devs don't want to encourage Nvidia's laziness or stubbornness. This may be KDE's problem, but Nvidia is the one who should be fixing this. It's a shame GNOME decided to take the path of least resistance.
    NVidia isn't negligent - they looked at GBM, realized it would require forking their driver entirely for Windows vs. Linux, and that the business case was impossible to justify. I agree it's good for the ecosystem as a whole for KDE to put its foot down, I'm not sure I would want Gnome to have done the same since it's probably healthy to have one highly functioning Wayland/NVidia environment. Gnome also has a much better funding situation than KDE so they can afford to do things like have their developers write a short-term EGL solution and then rewrite using the new protocol later.


    Originally posted by Azrael5 View Post
    What about QT5 wayland?
    https://wiki.qt.io/QtWayland
    Originally posted by Azrael5 View Post
    QT5 doesn't need of any xwayland because of QTWayland. I assume Kde developers should rebuild PLASMa since the beginning to get it ready.
    QtWayland is not what you think it is. It provides code for writing Wayland clients and Wayland servers. The client side code is useful and KDE builds KWayland around it. QtWayland server on the other hand is no competitor for KWin. It's like a mini Wayland server for things like a car dashboard OS. At the very beginning of Kwin/Plasma development it was determined they would not be able to base a desktop compositor on QtWayland because the architecture is simply too different. There are no new solutions to be found there for KDE.
    Last edited by miabrahams; 04-22-2018, 11:43 AM.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
      What hardware are you using and with what drivers? My Haswell-based laptop runs KDE+Wayland very smoothly.
      I've heard how setting the rendering backend to OpenGL 2.0 (instead of 3.1) can help improve performance.
      I can confirm these problems with Plasma 5.12.2 and my Intel Thinkpad T420. OpenGL setting is set to 2.0.
      I just upgraded my KDE Neon to Plasma 5.12.4 and Plasma Wayland did get smoother, but still X seems to be smoother when I click through all Plasma settings.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by Ouroboros View Post

        Going by the bug reports I found, that did appear to be a workaround. I never bothered to try working around any of the issues since I figured Plasma on Wayland wasn't stable enough for my use and just went back to Xorg.
        I do not doubt your problems on Wayland also depends on the video card you are using. However the big cursor is not a problem, just change the resolution in "system settings" and restart and the problem will not show up again. On my Tumbleweed it works quite well, there are some bugs, but for a basic use it works well and this will improve with the next versions. It is promising ...
        On the issue Nvidia is a problem of Nvidia not Kde, it shows the fact that it is a problem only with Nvidia and not with Amd and Intel.

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Azrael5 View Post
          QT5 doesn't need of any xwayland because of QTWayland.
          This is nonsense, QTWayland is a library to build lightweight Wayland compositors AND to make applications that run as Wayland clients, XWayland is a wrapper to run X11/Xorg applications on Wayland compositors.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
            Or... Nvidia could just have proper Wayland support, which they don't.
            They have. Wayland doesn't need or specify GBM as his API. Lack of GBM implementation on Nvidia drivers doesn't mean they are not supporting Wayland properly, because Wayland isn't tied to GBM or any other API. They are supporting Wayland properly, they just don't support GBM which is Mesa API.

            No, I'm not defending Nvidia. They should implement GBM to ensure compatibility with existing Wayland compositors, but still Wayland =/= GBM.

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            • #26
              I use Plasma-Wayland since a long time already. It works well on all tested Intel and AMD GPU's and especially for normal desktop use it works great. Most so called issues can be easily worked around with small adjustments. X11 wasn't perfect either, so doing a small setup here and there like adjusting the mouse cursor seems fair enough. If at this point something is missing, I would recommend to write a bug or leave a comment at an existing one to show your support.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by schmidtbag View Post
                What hardware are you using and with what drivers? My Haswell-based laptop runs KDE+Wayland very smoothly.
                I've heard how setting the rendering backend to OpenGL 2.0 (instead of 3.1) can help improve performance.


                Nouveau ought to work.


                Or... Nvidia could just have proper Wayland support, which they don't. Other Wayland-based compositors comply with Nvidia's workarounds, but Nvidia is deliberately negligent of proper support, and the KDE devs don't want to encourage Nvidia's laziness or stubbornness. This may be KDE's problem, but Nvidia is the one who should be fixing this. It's a shame GNOME decided to take the path of least resistance.
                It is completely unusable on my haswell. Cant close any window in a wayland session without it crashing back to login screen.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Charlie68 View Post

                  I do not doubt your problems on Wayland also depends on the video card you are using. However the big cursor is not a problem, just change the resolution in "system settings" and restart and the problem will not show up again. On my Tumbleweed it works quite well, there are some bugs, but for a basic use it works well and this will improve with the next versions. It is promising ...
                  On the issue Nvidia is a problem of Nvidia not Kde, it shows the fact that it is a problem only with Nvidia and not with Amd and Intel.
                  I definitely plan on giving it another try after Plasma 5.13 and Latte Dock 0.8 are released, I was just scared away by the obvious issues right after starting the Wayland session in 5.12. I'd prefer to wait for a bit more polish before switching to it for my daily use.

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                  • #29
                    Wayland on KDE is pretty close to being usable on my Sandy Bridge laptop. The performance seems slightly better than under X and it is currently just the ton of little things that keep me from switching permanently. Missing Pager is the biggest pain, there are popup dialogs still showing up in the wrong places, occasionally with weird flickering, MPV does not have windows decorations when in runs in Wayland mode etc. My experience was a lot worse with multiscreen setups but I am looking forward to give it another shot once 5.13 gets released.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by Steffo View Post
                      I can confirm these problems with Plasma 5.12.2 and my Intel Thinkpad T420. OpenGL setting is set to 2.0.
                      I just upgraded my KDE Neon to Plasma 5.12.4 and Plasma Wayland did get smoother, but still X seems to be smoother when I click through all Plasma settings.
                      Originally posted by dsreyes1014 View Post
                      It is completely unusable on my haswell. Cant close any window in a wayland session without it crashing back to login screen.
                      Hmm that's pretty weird. There are a lot of potential factors I can think of that may be causing this issue:
                      1. Is Mesa working properly when you use Wayland? I wonder if everything is falling back to CPU rendering.
                      2. Maybe your distro doesn't have Wayland properly configured? I personally am using Arch - it might help to reference Arch's wiki, regardless of what distro you use.
                      3. Your display manager might be causing problems. I personally use SDDM, since you only have to tweak 1 line in the config file to start a Wayland session.
                      4. To my knowledge, Wayland doesn't reference the xorg.conf, but I wonder if maybe having one conflicts with the way it behaves? From my recollection, my KDE setup still has an xorg.conf, but it might be worth deleting yours and see if that helps.
                      5. Part of me wonders if maybe you have everything (including Plasma) running in Xwayland?
                      6. Maybe you just need to do a fresh clean install. I didn't have to (I was already using my KDE setup for years before I switched to Wayland) but for such a complex system, you're bound to encounter something holding you back.

                      Originally posted by miabrahams View Post
                      NVidia isn't negligent - they looked at GBM, realized it would require forking their driver entirely for Windows vs. Linux, and that the business case was impossible to justify.
                      That may have once been true, but I have a hard time believing things are still that way. Nvidia for the longest time has been the go-to for high-performance graphics in Linux. Nvidia didn't have to do anything the community wanted, because people bought their stuff anyway; there wasn't another option. It's natural for them to want to take the path of least resistance. But the thing is, to my knowledge, AMD's amdgpu-pro drivers managed to get EGL support, and those drivers share code with Windows. Seeing as AMD's proprietary devs are unimpressive (to say the least), I don't see why Nvidia couldn't do the same. Nvidia is notorious for not being compliant; they had years to make their drivers more than what feels like a last-minute port from Windows. Despite their reasoning, that sounds pretty negligent to me. Not only that, but they seem to intentionally put very little effort into Nouveau. But now, AMD is catching up faster than anyone expected; Nvidia has real competition now, so maybe they'll actually give a damn.

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