macOS' APFS File-System Performing Much Better Than The Dated HFS+

[duby229]

Not exactly! What I'm saying is the learning to use their computers at the low level required on todays systems isn't in their best interest as it takes away from development in their field of interest.

Consider the history of personal computers a bit, even a bit before Microsoft and IBM got together. That was a world of 8 bit systems with operating systems like CPM and Apple DOS, neither case requiring significant time and resources of the user to just operate the machine. In the end you didn't have a board variety of use cases with apps focused on games, word processing and eventually spread sheets. The learning curve was considerable and frankly not worth it to many. As systems continued to evolve the OS's became more powerful with MSDOS with Windows 3.1 glued on top and Mac OS (the original version) both of these extremely limited in what they could do for the user due to the lack of hardware resources. Someplace in this time frame linux debuted and frankly had the same limitations on what it could do. A couple of decades later we have a Windows that has evolved significantly while still being clunky, a 64 bit Mac OS, a variety of cell phone OS's with Apple slowly going 64 bit only there and an evolved Linux that sits much better on modern hardware. Each evolution here has put a far easier to use layer over the underlying operating system. In doing so adoption of these systems has expanded dramatically because it doesn't require a huge user investment in time and training to get somewhere with the platforms.

It isn't a question of not want ting to know how to use their computers, rather it is is a different expectation of what is need to be known to operate their computers. Somebody grabbing his iPhone form his pocket is operating his computer just the same as some gray beard sitting in front of a command line interface. The work or as is often the case the recreation accomplished is often different, but in each case the user is operating his system.

In some cases the operation of the computer has to be nearly transparent due to the fact hat the users just don't have time. Often they literally don't have the time to sit down in front of a computer, the medical industry especially hospitals is a classic example here where there is much hope for tablets. Yet is a nurse or doctor is using a tablet to enhance or automate some off their tasks they are very much using a computer. More so they are leveraging a computer in a application that wasn't even possible with previous platforms.

Nope and I must say with certain that it is ignorance like this that is really hurting the Linux world and maybe more so free software in general. We aren't talking about taking away tools here we are talking about being able to give tools to more users than ever before. That so many in the Linux world don't get this is appalling. Like it or not Apples simple debut of the iPad greatly expanded the industries and crafts where a computer is even useful. The classic example is the utility of the iPad in a crowded cockpit but similar examples can be had in other industries included hospitals mentioned above. These are places where a Linux based machine, GUI based or not, just isn't physically usable. The point is advanced interfaces opens up the feasibility of getting people to use a computer in many more professional areas. It isn't any different than what has happened with GUI interfaces on the desktop, if the interface makes adoption possible then it is a good thing.

In a nut shell you are looking at this as taking away tools but I look at it as making tools available that where never available to whole classes of professionals before. Frankly you are not the only one to share this misguided attitude in the Linux world. The idea that using a computer requires jumping into the command line must die, it needs to be replaced with the idea that it is an option and often not an ideal one.


First off I never said that. Second why is it that every time the Linux world is hit with a new concept or idea they automatically assume that it is an attack on their beloved command line? "And the best operating system in the future won't have the tools or ability to be used at all", you just don't grasp what is being said nor do you have any vision of what the future could offer. Do you honestly believe that tomorrows computers will be less powerful? That flies in the face of history and certainly dismisses what is being done research wise around the world. Instead of few tools you will literally have thousands of tools available at your finder tips but more likely those tools will be exposed though a voice interface with powerful AI concepts to help you leverage al those tools. In effect your ability to use the computer expands dramatically.

Think of it this way, how powerful was a computer in the days before Google? Finding information, references and business was a true pain in the ass. While Google the company might suck we have now many terabytes of data and web site at our instant disposal. That is a powerful form of computer use that is so common today that people hardly make note of it. Now imagine an AI operating on your local system that can do much the same but is highly focused on your specific interests and local resources. Your tools become more powerful simply due to the idea that they can do more for you. If you understand that Google and similar web services are tools, then making those tools more powerful makes your machine more useful right?

In a nut shell you are living in the past where the concept of a tool is many decades old. That is alright to an extent because this tools will never go completely away. The problem is you must grasp that what constitutes a tool will only get more powerful as tools incorporate more AI and better leverage the resources in a modern computer. An apology is CAD systems, at one time you had to construct 2D objects one line at a time then came 3D and after that solid modeling. Each evolution in CAD systems offered more powerful tools that allowed the user to develop his parts far faster at a much higher level than ever before, nobody in the design world worried for one moment that the ability to draw one line at a time was undermined. Instead they are thankful that they can do most of their work at a much higher level than ever before. As computers become even more powerful I really don't see anybody in the CAD world dismissing more powerful CAD systems because they don't need to use the command line anymore to draw one line at a time. At times I really believe that working with the Linux community is a lot like working with the Luddites during the dawn of the Industrial Age, people just seem to be caught up in the notion that the command line is all their is and all that should be.

There is so much "big brother" in there that I just don't know how to respond. Many of your points I do agree with, but I really hope your not the guy that revolutionizes computer interfaces.

[labyrinth153]

I'll post my point of view as a Linux admin gone Mac user. I downloaded and upgraded to Mac OS 10.13 on my iMac. I found out that the fusion drive was not supported as an upgrade to apfs and I would have to wait for a point release. Not being daunted I went to the recovery mode and migrated my device to apfs anyway. I had a kernel panic 90% or so into the process and didn't lose any data but the system was not able to boot. It appears there is a big problem with migrating encrypted file systems on a fusion drive. So I reformatted, reinstalled, migrated the unencrypted system to apfs, and now it works great. Its the first major problem I encountered since buying this iMac. It was entirely of my own doing. I get the feeling apfs is being rushed though.

Can't say I had any other bugs in high Sierra, though some are complaining about graphical glitches in games. I will have to confirm.

[duby229]

Have you read some of rms's work? Yes, it is a real danger, and we must remain vigilant. But most "average users", they simply use computers as a purely "black box" solution. And I think rms made exceptions for such devices, if my memory serves me, such as a camera which was only used to take pictures and has a few buttons on it, and cannot do any sort of computing.

He would never agree on what I'm about to say, but most people use a computer like that. They click on icons and want to avoid as much as possible any sort of actual interaction with the computer. So for those people, removing all tools and ability to use the hardware is actually something they prefer.

My aunt, which has an iMac with probably 2 TB of storage, calls me every so often to inquire if she might soon run out of space, since she has about 12 word documents that are "very large", by which she means they have maybe 100 pages each, and I have to tell her she could have thousands of such documents and she wouldn't even be close to taking up all the space, and she then repeats "yeah, ok, I understand. But, ..., these are very large documents", then I thank the Gods she is able to have a solution like a Mac. If there weren't icons at the bottom listing her software, she would never be able to find it. In fact, if her word documents aren't on the desktop, she can't find them. For example, if she slides them in a folder, she thinks she deleted them. Could you imagine her having to use an interface such as Gnome? Lol, impossible. Even Windows 10 would completely baffle her, since I suspect she would not be able to find any of her software, like email, browser, and word.

For us, we need to be able to see what is going on. Audit, edit, change, compile. Dare I say debug ? We need this freedom, and should never take it for granted. But don't be mad at people that can't handle that type of freedom.

P.S. Yes I've told my aunt her word files are slow because word is slow with 100+ pages, yes I've told her to split the documents into smaller ones when she's editing them, and no she won't, because it confuses her if documents are "blahblah-part1.doc, blahblah-part2.doc". She opens one of them and thinks she deleted the other parts. And she's actually an incredibly smart person, but not tech smart. She typed her entire PhD on a typewriter. She's just old school.

No offense to your aunt, but she doesn't need a computer, she needs a typewriter. I mean there is just no point in migrating people like that to new technology. I'm sure I'm gonna fall into that same boat someday myself, so it's not a criticism, I'm just being sincere. When the day comes that I have to talk to a computer to use it as was predicted, I will definitely be in that boat.

Despite the best wishful thinking the fact is that computers are not black boxes. They are interactive shells and those interactions require training. If people are unwilling like me, or incapable like your aunt, of being trained then they -need- to stick with what they already know. It's too late for your aunt now, she's grown expectations about her computer that she doesn't understand and that she will never get from a typewriter. That's exactly why she never should have been transitioned off it.

[AndyChow]

No offense to your aunt, but she doesn't need a computer, she needs a typewriter. I mean there is just no point in migrating people like that to new technology. I'm sure I'm gonna fall into that same boat someday myself, so it's not a criticism, I'm just being sincere. When the day comes that I have to talk to a computer to use it as was predicted, I will definitely be in that boat.

Despite the best wishful thinking the fact is that computers are not black boxes. They are interactive shells and those interactions require training. If people are unwilling like me, or incapable like your aunt, of being trained then they -need- to stick with what they already know. It's too late for your aunt now, she's grown expectations about her computer that she doesn't understand and that she will never get from a typewriter. That's exactly why she never should have been transitioned off it.

I'm saying we can have both. My aunt loves email. She sends me links that don't work to cat video's she's seen. I'm happy she can have that. She can see some pictures on email (if they are html embedded, not attachments), on a beautiful 5k screen.

That's life man. Not everyone makes it. But it's not because you don't understand quantum mechanics that you can't enjoy the products of innovation that derives from quantum mechanics.

Why are you so hard-lined? It's not a XOR we live in. It's a live and let live.

[AndyChow]

No offense to your aunt, but she doesn't need a computer, she needs a typewriter. I mean there is just no point in migrating people like that to new technology. I'm sure I'm gonna fall into that same boat someday myself, so it's not a criticism, I'm just being sincere. When the day comes that I have to talk to a computer to use it as was predicted, I will definitely be in that boat.

Despite the best wishful thinking the fact is that computers are not black boxes. They are interactive shells and those interactions require training. If people are unwilling like me, or incapable like your aunt, of being trained then they -need- to stick with what they already know. It's too late for your aunt now, she's grown expectations about her computer that she doesn't understand and that she will never get from a typewriter. That's exactly why she never should have been transitioned off it.

I hope I'm not double posting. I posted, doesn't seem to show. What I wanted to tell you duby229, is that we don't live in a XOR world. We can have both. We can maintain both realities in parallel.

[lowflyer]

This is too good not to quote:

People buying Apple won't buy non-Apple because it is not Apple.

[lejeczek]

Because as you can see from the forums... people are interested... and macOS vs. Linux is always quite of interest to many.

I did not honestly know you had some many fanbois around here. Sorry. (Still, a waste of your precious time, in my mind)

[Vistaus]

I really don't have any idea what your problem would have been nor how you where using that machine but I have to wonder why somebody that is technically littering would have purchased the 12" Mac Book. The reality is that the little Mac Book has a processor that can be beaten by a cellphone processor. I have to wonder what the replacement laptop was because I'm wiling to bet it had a vastly better processor. In the end it is an Apples to oranges comparison.

Because I don't need a super-fast processor. At least, that's what I thought but macOS clearly needs more power. My replacement laptop is a Dell Chromebook 13 with Incel Celeron (2016) processor on which I've removed ChromeOS and install Solus instead. Never had any problems ever since. But I'm willing to bet that this Celeron (2016 version) isn't any faster in raw speed compared to what was inside of that MacBook. But it feels faster as Solus is much faster and more fluid. So unless you can prove me wrong in that this Celeron really is faster, then I'm sorry but you've lost the bet ;-)

[arokh]

Macuser: Great article, good to see HFS replaced.
PCuser: macOS sucks anyway it's complete crap!
Macuser: I disagree, it works great for me.
PCuser: You're brainwashed by Apple!
Macuser: Actually no, it works like it's supposed to.
PCuser: Fanboy! You just like to parade it around the streets.
Macuser: Actually I use it for work.
PCuser: That's impossible, when you hit X the window doesn't actually close!
Macuser: Errr, well.... It still works satisfactory for me.
PCuser: Fanatic!! You just defend anything Apple does! Even if it's waaaay to pricey!
Macuser: I can afford it and like I said I'm happy with it.
PCuser: Point proven! Reality distortion field!!

Right. This was getting old in 2006 PC users are the worst hipocrites in history. Personally I use both. macOS is an excellent operating system, and it just got better with APFS. I do miss the time of OSX server, Xserves, Xraid and all that good stuff for the enterprise. Too bad Apple decided to shut it down.

[aht0]

Oh I could name a few... Marc Driftmeyer and Wizard69 in particular come to mind.

Yet to see them spreading poison in BSD or Solaris-related topics. In fact, even here both seem to be mentally more coherent than mr Pawlerson.