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Rust-Written Redox OS 0.8 Released With i686 Support, Audio & Multi-Display Working

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  • Originally posted by xfcemint View Post
    Microkernels allow for a fully closed-source drivers.


    Oh, I actually correctly interpreted your previous reply. Which makes me sad. I hoped that I was wrong.

    1) Irrelevant, because current microkernels are lacking either the in-kernel support or the proper ecosystem that would enable it.
    2) Irrelevant, because FUSE is not as good as a proper microkernel, so serious drivers can't use FUSE.
    3) Irrelevant, because in a microkernel, drivers are not part of the kernel, so closed-source drivers can stay out of Redox mainline.
    4) Irrelevant, because obscurity of a closed-source driver can be better accomplished by other means.
    The first half of this is basically "untested, because people pretty much exclusively write drivers as kernel modules." That was my point, that you have no evidence to back up your assertion that "manufacturers love to write drivers for microkernels."

    As for the 2nd half. A) Good luck getting any closed driver shipped. It was a deal to ship it that finally made nvidia cave and work on an open kernel driver. B) probing interactions with the hardware is really all you need to understand how a driver works. Even complex graphics drivers with their built in compilers are the classic example, with nouveau providing REnouveau.

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    • This isn't the place to argue about proprietary drivers. That's not something that any open source kernel project has control over. That discussion needs to be taken to the few companies who are still developing drivers that way. They're the ones responsible for developing and releasing their own products, after all.

      I'd argue that most vendors nowadays consider open source drivers to be a competitive advantage of their product. The few that remain need further convincing that it's in their best interest. I'd also point out that these days trade secrets that were in drivers have long since moved into firmware, so even some open source drivers on LInux aren't quite as open as you think. In general, if the firmware is not open source then the hardware isn't fully open.
      Last edited by mmstick; 25 November 2022, 10:12 PM.

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      • Originally posted by xfcemint View Post
        First of all, if you are a part of the Redox OS team, I would prefer that you acknowledge it, otherwise I think this discussion cannot be considered a fair discussion..​​
        That's a very bold assumption to make about someone. Maybe ask them if they are before jumping to that conclusion.

        The Redox OS documentation clearly states that it is a microkernel. Or, perhaps, that it should be a microkernel, if that goal hasn't been accomplished yet.

        If Redox OS goes the microkernel path, then it gets the benefit of less worries about drivers. In a microkernel, drivers are just applications, so the burden of managing them shifts to vendors, just as you would like.
        Redox is a microkernel. Drivers are already in userspace. Many drivers are already written for it and included with Redox.
        Last edited by mmstick; 25 November 2022, 10:35 PM.

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        • Originally posted by xfcemint View Post
          I'm sorry that I don't have the time to explore the current status of Redox OS on all the various features that a true, fully featured microkernel needs. It is a huge job to make a real microkernel, so I doubt that Redox OS has been able to complete it so quickly.
          Maybe you should try it out in a virtual machine on Linux. It'd take far less effort to do that than speculate about its functionality. You may find that Redox OS is a lot further along than you think. It's at a stage where a lot of open source software and games are being successfully ported to Redox. Even Wine is now on the table for porting. Also keep in mind that Pop!_OS investments into development of COSMIC and Iced are also going to have a direct impact on Redox in the near future, too.

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          • Originally posted by xfcemint View Post
            From my side of the argument, it doesn't matter whether there exists a single closed-source driver for microkernels. Why? Because support of closed-source drivers is one of the main features of microkernels.
            ​​
            And yet not a single closed-source driver on a microkernel OS in sight.

            Originally posted by xfcemint View Post
            You can't say that what I have said is "untested", because my argument is deductive, comming from the definition of a microkernel. It doesn't depend on the actual situation in the wild.
            ​​​
            To say that something is derived purely by deduction from definitions is, literally by definition, to have nothing but an untested theory.

            Side note: spellcheck is a thing.

            ​​​​​​​
            Originally posted by xfcemint View Post
            If a microkernel isn't supporting closed-source drivers, it is missing one of its major features.
            ​​​​​​​​​
            Clearly you don't belong anywhere near a an open source community then.

            ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​
            Originally posted by xfcemint View Post
            As for getting drivers "shipped", you are practically disregarding the existence of distributions (as in distributions of Linux). Whether the developers of Redox OS like it or not, distributions will appear if the OS is of any good use. Then a distribution can just ship any drivers as it ships any other applications.
            ​​​​​​​​​​
            ​Once again ignoring physical reality to put forth your own theory. Ever heard of Debian? How about OpenBSD? Ubuntu? They don't ship any proprietary software in the base install, as I mentioned in the post you're quoting without bothering to read.
            ​​​​​​​
            ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​
            Originally posted by xfcemint View Post
            There is, of course, another possibility, which is the one that can make me very sad. Perhaps the developers of Redox OS didn't express it correctly, and they misinterpreted what a microkernel means. I would strongly advise against such a decision, as you will be trashing the most beautiful feature of your entire OS.​​
            Quite rich from someone who's made so many embarrassing errors in this thread alone, conversing with myself and others.

            ​​​​​​​
            Originally posted by xfcemint View Post
            Second, I'm not here because of my ego,
            ​​
            I think you're here 100% because of your ego, and you should check yourself before you wreck yourself.​​
            ​​​​​​​
            ​​​​​​​
            Originally posted by xfcemint View Post
            First of all, if you are a part of the Redox OS team, I would prefer that you acknowledge it
            ​​
            LOL.

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            • Originally posted by mmstick View Post
              Also keep in mind that Pop!_OS investments into development of COSMIC and Iced are also going to have a direct impact on Redox in the near future, too.
              do you think that cosmic comp might be able to be ported? or are you referring to iced apps in general, including the cosmic... ecosystem(?) working on redox?

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              • Originally posted by Developer12 View Post

                It's tested on laptops a lot, where the lack of USB mouse is a non-issue.
                Ok I'm not into periphery drivers - I thougth this is also managed as an USB device ?

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                • Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post

                  do you think that cosmic comp might be able to be ported? or are you referring to iced apps in general, including the cosmic... ecosystem(?) working on redox?
                  Yeah, that's the plan to eventually port cosmic-comp.

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                  • Originally posted by Developer12 View Post
                    ...
                    Clearly you don't belong anywhere near a an open source community then.
                    ...
                    I agree with microkernels having the advantage of supporting closed sourced drivers, but the disadvantage for the open source community is that companies are no longer required to publish the source code of their drivers like with monolithic kernels and instead just give a binary blob I'm assuming?

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                    • Originally posted by mmstick View Post

                      Yeah, that's the plan to eventually port cosmic-comp.
                      Thanks for the reply. this is very exciting, best of luck to the cosmic team!

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