Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Rust-Written Redox OS 0.7 Released With New Bootloader, RedoxFS Goes CoW

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #51
    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    I think here we talked partially past each other, yes for fun I also posted the link to the lisp OS, and I am not sure if this what 1-2 man program seems to be usable maybe it could be decent at some tasks with more people, but I am not deeply invested if the kernel is also lisp based somehow... I don't even know the architecture of the linked OS, but I do like GUIX which replaces the initsystem and everything else with lisp, and that is fast enough I even use it on a old netbook or multiple ones to be precise, and the bottleneck is not the init system or the paketmanagement, even on the slower one that is only 32bit sometimes took a few days to upgrade the system the bottlenecks are non-lisp browsers in resolution nad cpu speed.
    Sure, but the context where you'd compare <insert language> and Rust here is kernels.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    Ok I misunderstood you again, I thought you meant the ability to write special dsls for specific problems, not the S-expressions.
    I meant that, but aren't macros just S-expressions?

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    Beeing the main thing is unlikely but having a very healthy place in the industry will happen, if we don't automate coding and let the K.I. write everything, it also took forever to make linux viable, but now it will become in the next years because of gaming a plattform that can't be ignored anymore. And that will open up other doors, it's like a snowball rolling slowly down a hill and get's bigger and faster over time. The last steam numbers are the first that seem to be a real accelleration not some random background noice. So whatever, but there is a reason why some people refuse to let something die.
    Note that, keeping the analogy with Linux, there had been serious improvements in ease of use and learning curve before that could happen. The Linux we had in the early 2000s simply wouldn't have been friendly enough. I don't see how you can make functional programming and specially the Lisp variant easy enough for the masses if it isn't now. The way I see it, you'd need to make it lose all its identity.
    Regarding letting it die, I don't think it is death nor I think it will die. It will simply be the niche of very passionate programmers as it still is. Just as Java will remain a soulless language that forces the programmer to work in a standardized way and thus makes programmers easily replaceable, another industry priority.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    Now that is only the individual reason, the internal logic basically, while from a macro level the reason society wants them and allows them to exist is to create BETTER products and sometimes more and cheaper, but them making money is only a means to a end, it's not the end itself. (for society)
    And I think you use the word "bad" in "not logical" I understand the logic, yet I don't think that this is good for the people working in the industry and even the consumers, because lisp would also mean more functional programming, with less side effects, therefor less downtimes, less security bugs, and less power waste, better programms to paralize etc.
    I agree on the views for society, but remember we live in a capitalist world (we may not like it, but it's the current reality) that works via incentive systems that pretty much always end up translating into making money. Regardless of whether if it's good or bad, it puts a lot of weight for its functioning in individual choice and you need to incentivize that.
    Regarding functional programming, well, a bit yes, but we came up with different compromises (e.g. immutable by default languages also reduce side effects and ease parallelization) that make it easier to take some of the advantages without cutting up the number of competent programmers. As I said, I'm not implying Lispers aren't more productive or that they don't write more correct code, but that it requires a higher level of education and thus can't supply the whole industry.
    Regarding power waste, I think Lisp is unlikely to be better than something like C or Rust, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if it was much better than Python tho.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    That might be sometimes true for bigger projects, probably mostly proprietary software, including SaaS, but there are also many smaller softwareprojects, it's not like python is used very often in huge projects with hundrets of developers, like reddit was written in lisp, I didn't see millions of new feature since they ported it to whatever it's now written in. But there are even smaller websites of course, where it could do well, I don't see a reason why the webframeworks could not be made competitive with something like rails.
    But then again there's a supply problem. A cost problem as well. These smaller websites often have a smaller budget than Reddit, but the salaries for Lispers will probably need to be higher, not lower. Besides, most of the industry is made up of proprietary software.
    You don't need hundreds of developers in a given project in general, but you do need to have a team of 3-10 in most cases and you need those to be replaceable as time goes by.
    Regarding the web frameworks, if I'm to believe the things I've read from anecdotes of Lispers, my take is it will never happen because Lisp is too productive for its own good. If most don't need the framework, nobody will waste time writing it. But if they don't write the framework that rules them all (which for the regular Lisper that cares about being creative and free would be a bad thing anyway) it'll never reach the unwashed masses. I mean, the reason Rails became popular enough for the industry to adopt it is that it gave you a program where all the hard thought was already done and you just needed to plug some pieces.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    I mispoke a bit, I did not mean "you" personaly but more as in "they" it's hard to correct everything in this big mega-comments here
    Makes sense.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    I think it should be like with email, you have a webclient optional on the web page but then can eventually setup the client, and like with web mail some prefer to only use the web client and not use the other client, but many use native web clients. So it's worth it to have both, and if you say that is more work, not really because this websites often have site specific apis anyway and creating them makes probably more work than having a standard.
    You'd still be writing a backend and a frontend so the dev saved little, but I meant more work for the user that makes it inapplicable.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    But compare the amount of programmers working on thunderbird and co with all the web developers it's probably hundrets of thousend web developers if not millions vs hundrets or thousends that write this native clients.
    Fair, but also think how specialized those working in Thunderbird are compared to generic web programmers.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    Easy to solve, A thunderbird also somehow lives from donations I assume? But you could just with the webshop client send with each order the ID of the client and they could then be paid by the webshop owners some small fee for each order, they could even have default shops presets of shops that pay them to be listed first or something. RSS client also do exist, reddit and twitter clients exist, even their specific protocols are way more difficult to implement than something like imap.

    Now you have all the websites and also site specific clients for many websites more than my 5-6 proposed protocols would be.
    I'm not really sure what's the model you're proposing here. What I can argue from the little I understood is that these "site specific clients" are monetized by selling user data and that's the economic incentive. Regarding donations, AFAIK Thunderbird struggles and the Mozilla Foundation itself is compromising a lot of its values to survive. The biggest contender and actually market leader Chrome is where it is because it sells user data. So even with the custom protocols you wouldn't be solving the biggest problem with the web. I'm not sure it's related to your point anyway.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    I just don't see that you need to write own macros that often, and as user it's basically a normal function. the bigger difference would probably be data types, like working with lists.
    But would you say someone who doesn't know what a macro is can maintain some random Lisp project that they're new to because the author quit from the company?
    Besides, you would need to outright ban macros from your projects to consider it optional in any way.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    Well I would argue that GNU / (linux) Distributions could promote GNU / (editor)
    Eh, I think GNU/Linux is more of an accident. GNU needed a kernel and Linux needed a userspace, it was not something planned to be cohesive.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    Yeah but there are no entry level jobs, while I did big projects in Elisp I would have issues to apply for a senior lisp developer job in Common lisp or Clojure. And yes I am to lazy and probably to old to just do for fun a bigger program in that languages to become senior like in my free time. And you say there are not enough, maybe that is more true in the US, but here in germany, lisp has no good standing, and I am pretty sure (and also applied), that I am not the only applicant for that jobs
    The "no entry level jobs" problem is quite general and obviously translates to even fewer for smaller niches, that's true. However, you don't need to be senior _in_ Lisp in most cases. When there are few candidates you can prove yourself senior _as a programmer_ and prove your worth in other ways. Specially if you're fluent in another dialect anyway.
    I don't live in the US, but if you're willing to go full remote programming becomes a more global profession.
    There may be an egg and chicken problem tho.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    Possible could also have to do with different location, in our school we use still chalk boards to this day, keeping everything simple and focused on the subject seem to be a schooling style here, I have no statistic about it, but as example in the US also apple is much more popular than here, just to say that geografically use patterns my be different.
    It very well may be. From what I heard in Germany there's also a huge focus on privacy that most countries ignore, so many tools that send telemetry are probably disliked. In Argentina people aren't as conscious.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    I think A there is a biological difference, you say they are more geeky but we had like 3 women in my college age level.
    I'd rather ignore the biological discussion. While it may very well be true (and honestly, knowing how many traits are affected by hormones I wouldn't be at all surprised that some biological factors affect this in average), some things may lead to problematic conclusions. What I can assert are two things:
    1. That I didn't say they are more geeky, I said I met many geek women and their experience was they needed to hide or dismiss that geekiness, so how many there are is probably underestimated if we only observe outcomes.
    2. That in any case everything in human traits tends to follow a normal distribution, and thus even if the average is shifted towards or against something you'll find people in the whole spectrum from all genders.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    But even if I ignore the biological part, women seem to sabotage their careers partially on purpose, (not all but many), because they know they want to work less in the end and have and find a partner that earns more than them if possible otherwise at least same / similar level. And even having a strong career makes it harder to argue from a logical standpoint to work less if they get babies, they don't want to admit that often they want to pull back, they want to be seen as the victim and get what they want.
    There's a societal structure that promotes that. Say the "work less if they get babies". Babies have two parents in most cases. It stands to reason that the argument would, in a neutral society, apply to any kind of parent, not just mothers. It's because of the historical expectation that women take a bigger role in raising children that they tend to want to work less when they become mothers.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    I am sure that is not true for all, but women seem to have a stronger binding with their child when it's young from stilling and birthing, and women prefer or "mind" less work with other people, including or especially small children. Also they are less married to their careers assuming they can get babies, or are getting them, because men often define their live purpose with their career (yes that seem to fail more and more because of less stable careers, but that is not a choice but bad environment), while if a women got babies her live purpose is sufficiently fullfilled, nobody will ask a women what have you done the last 5 years and she said "I became a mother" and then dare to ask, what else? But if a man would say "I became a father otherwise I did nothing" would socially not be accepted.
    Your last phrase more or less confirms what I said earlier. It may be the case that they tend to be less career focused, but it has a lot to do with societal expectations on gender roles more than it is about individual choices.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    Sure it's a mixture between biology and social things, but A the biological part is hugely underestimated, and B the social aspect is less gate keeping, nobody bullied female students in collige for computer science, just women on average don't like as much to work with things, even if they become developer, they are much more team workers and stuff like that, (working with humans), or they focus on frontend (how humans interact) or work with a mentor etc.
    I've seen the gate keeping myself, and honestly when I was younger I took part on it. Maybe not explicitly in the sense of intentionally excluding them, but being condescending and expecting more proof that they were competent than with guys, or simply assuming they were posers.
    It may very well be another case of cultural differences between countries tho, so it may not have happened in your university as much as it happens in mine.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    And it's fine and great to have this exceptions and some of their often different style can be great, just don't like to charakterize that as the result of sexism, that people gone into that fields in the past has multiple reasons, Coding 50-100 years ago was a different job, it was less reasonable to go into other fields that women would prefered back then like doctors or lawyers, because the education was to long, and the total numbers of this women was not high, because back then there were not much jobs in this sector.
    Of course not everything is the result of sexism, and even when it is it isn't always about 1:1 sexism but about societal expectations that are sexist (e.g. the children and purpose stuff, I think you have good intentions and wouldn't tell a woman she should just have children, but you recognized society expects them to be more focused on their families and us guys on having a successful career; that is sexist but it's society, not you individually, being sexist). People make choices, people also have role models that shape some of them, and regarding role models that also means some of the previous generation's trends will reproduce in the current ones, so because most women see more older women dedicating their lives to either motherhood or "women's" careers they tend to get better guidance for that, just as guys get better guidance for "manly" careers.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    They don't need to be as powerful as todays desktop pcs, just enough to reasonably render modern web pages. It's not meant as main pc for most people anyway, it's just a side pc to use along other desktops or other devices.
    Modern web pages are the reason we need modern desktop PCs to be powerful, with the exception of some professional uses and hardcore gaming. It doesn't address my point tho, more powerful hardware tends to be more power hungry and it's a priority for such portable devices that they have good autonomy. ARM based ones should be powerful enough while being energy efficient tho.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    Again yes we just use different definitions of "bad" or evil. The lack of "goodness" I call bad or evil, while you would call that "neutral".
    Very well.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    I would just use because autist people have also often of course even the main thing to have problems to be social, but I know that not all autists are savants, they can be very non-functional,
    I'm aware. But the analogy is based in what pop culture thinks of autism, not the biological reality of it. Just a nit tho, savants are supposed to not be functional in general, they're bright for one thing and dysfunctional in almost all the rest.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    I also don't mean it in a literal sense, I have sometimes the believe that in america there must be 1000x as much people with autism, trans-ism, and people that are funny enough (because peanuts is much more prominent flavor with peanut butter in everyting) more peanut allergies than here. Some of this might be partially true, some might be just here more keeping that stuff more private. So some things seem to be more triggering to say, here only in TV media and only the last few years somebody would start to give a shit about using some words, and people are full of it partially, we have some special german language version made up by feminists, that tries to make all words nutral because we have a gramatical sex, so the cat is female or the sun, and they can't understand that gramatical sex is not the same than sex of people, well people hate to say "Doktor*in" with the * as small pause or stutter, to "mention both sexes and the * also refers to non-binary" like 80% of germans are against it but german public television started use this language a few years ago. (90% of journalists vote for the green party)
    In the US people seem to be more sensitive about words than most of the world, that's true. What's culturally insensitive of them is that they apply their standards for banning for some words where they aren't derogative everywhere. Regarding gender neutral language, I support it for the combination of three reasons:
    1. It doesn't hurt;
    2. While it is true that grammatical sex is not the same as human sex, grammar and language in general is mutable, so that doesn't mean we necessarily need to keep it any single way;
    3. If it makes more people feel included, given 1 and 2, I think it's good enough a reason to use it.

    Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
    Sure in bullying, but that happend here I would think way less anyway, I got bullied because I was fat, sure but that is different from being a geek. Because we have basically no sports in schools, and even privatly very few people get buffed, more or less everybody looks like a geek except maybe googles? I don't know because we have smaller schools we also mix more I guess. So I refered more for having jobs for geeks.
    Well, programming has historically been a bit of a job for geeks. Now the industry boomed too much for it to be exclusive, but geeks still tend to get the best paying jobs out of being more skilled (in turn because being more passionate makes them skilled). I mean, I'm no Donald Knuth, but I'm monetarily and in terms of work benefits much more successful than the average programmer here because I've been a geek since forever. Maybe not as much to become a Lisper, but I think in absolute terms it's equivalent, just I focus on lower level and runtime efficiency because that's what I like.

    Comment


    • #52
      Sorry for the late answer didn't see a email that you answered.

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      I meant that, but aren't macros just S-expressions?
      macros are a subset of s-expression, but not all s-expressions are macros.

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      Note that, keeping the analogy with Linux, there had been serious improvements in ease of use and learning curve before that could happen.
      I would argue that Racket that did begin long ago but was renamen and marketed as racked since 2010 with some descent success is a good attempt to to make progress.

      I could also see that mainstream languages slowly become more and more like lisp without using s-expressions and maybe offer it optionally, like Julia is pretty hipp right now has basically more or less everything lisp has, except maybe macros .

      Better than any language I know, I would argue that all hipp languages are attempts to bring something from lisp to the non-lisp world, because besides the unusual not so easy to market syntax lisp is king, especially since OOP got a real bad wrap, most better java devs seem to realize that OOP sucks.

      So:
      https://raganwald.com/2013/07/19/jav...is-a-lisp.html
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(programming_language)
      (started also as lisp)
      Ruby:
      Matsumoto describes the design of Ruby as being like a simple Lisp language at its core
      I would argue that python is the biggest "anti"-lisp, the dude hated functional programming and the language has not even block-scope and of course has the fewest parens of all languages

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      I agree on the views for society, but remember we live in a capitalist world (we may not like it, but it's the current reality) that works via incentive systems that pretty much always end up translating into making money.
      Yet some companies and not the smallest like banks or wall mart like companies seem to like lisp, yes the schooling is a problem I get it, but this companies can make that work, and if they can use a slightly better programming that saves computer power that can make a huge difference worth to overcome this problems. While smaller companies more likely don't want to take the risk to use something non-standard.

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      that make it easier to take some of the advantages without cutting up the number of competent programmers.
      Yes just slowly the normal languages become more and more like lisp till they evolve into lisp

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      Regarding power waste, I think Lisp is unlikely to be better than something like C or Rust, but I'd be happy to be proved wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if it was much better than Python tho.
      Yeah in web you have at best webassambly that's as low as it goes nearly nobody wants to compile webpages to binary code somehow. And lisp mostly is mostly bytecode interpreted.

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      Regarding the web frameworks, if I'm to believe the things I've read from anecdotes of Lispers, my take is it will never happen because Lisp is too productive for its own good.
      It partially happens that such very user friendly things get created, like Hy, it's just that python is such a garbage language that you then use strange python constructs with lisp syntax, so I am not sold that it's for lisp users thing, but yes small projects can make huge differences, it's just that so little effort is done to make lisp accessable, that even it would not take that much, this very little needed often don't happen. But again Clojure is not that professional (btw there you have a good attempt in having something like rails, maybe in 5 years rails problems I see (no orm or something alike get fixed)).

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      If most don't need the framework, nobody will waste time writing it.
      Again you could see Clojure as that.

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      You'd still be writing a backend and a frontend so the dev saved little, but I meant more work for the user that makes it inapplicable.
      Well I think in the past governments saw standardisation a good thing, for some reason they did not keep standardising stuff. That said nobody builds things like imap anymore.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Crispin

      I don't know why the US stopped doing that? Do only morrons work in colleges this day or did the government cut funding and sold the colleges to google?

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      I'm not really sure what's the model you're proposing here. What I can argue from the little I understood is that these "site specific clients" are monetized by selling user data and that's the economic incentive.
      That's true for big companies / services but this phoronix forum don't need a site specific api, forum would be one of the major things, do you know tapatalk? that tries to support a few main provider and it's proprietary because there is no 1 api standard for forums. Heck there is not even a phoronix-forums app at all so having such standard would just enable this feature to begin with. And while I see that news posts is hard to have them in general clients because you want to post ads and stuff, I don't see that for forums as much.

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      But would you say someone who doesn't know what a macro is can maintain some random Lisp project that they're new to because the author quit from the company?
      Yes.

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      Besides, you would need to outright ban macros from your projects to consider it optional in any way.
      Maybe yes

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      Eh, I think GNU/Linux is more of an accident. GNU needed a kernel and Linux needed a userspace, it was not something planned to be cohesive.
      Sure but it happend, and the gnu part is the philosophy because even the kernel itself has a version of the gnu/lisense so agrees to at least a older version of the ideal.

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      However, you don't need to be senior _in_ Lisp in most cases. When there are few candidates you can prove yourself senior _as a programmer_ and prove your worth in other ways. Specially if you're fluent in another dialect anyway.
      I am to old to proof myself, maybe my heart is to weak, not that I am diagnosed with that, maybe I had some (minor) depression or burnout 10 years ago. Maybe I am just to unhealthy currenty, but I can't bring myself to try to sell myself, the best I could do would be to make my own business.

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      There may be an egg and chicken problem tho.
      Yes possible, don't know if I restart my career in that field, had some bad luck after college and partially I am to shaded now and partially maybe to unhealthy.

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      It very well may be. From what I heard in Germany there's also a huge focus on privacy that most countries ignore, so many tools that send telemetry are probably disliked. In Argentina people aren't as conscious.
      In theory yes... yet our goverment uses many MS tools for governing. There is much talk but much not acting...

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      I'd rather ignore the biological discussion.
      I put it that way, do you think the children of mothers that hated to raise children had a high survival chance, or do you think mothers that feeled joy in raising the children had higher survival change? I assume the latter, so evolution would have selected for that type of animal (before humans even probably), while the same is not true in animal kingdom, even with apes, women raise the child, now that does not mean that man can not feel anything maybe more intellectual satisfying, that through intellectuallity and just human tuch itself can create emotions sure. But there are differences, women are obsessed with pets and horses, especially women that can't have children. Now you could claim that that is because we gave them dolls, but why try so hard to find another explanation if we have already a logical explanation? Because some people don't like the logical explanation, often lesbian therefor non-norm women that happen to be feminits because they feel like they are like men, because their brain structures are like men, they just make the mistake and assume that is true for the normal bi-sexual women is the same, while it isn't.

      I would rather ask why would it be unlogical that evolution would not have selected strongy for females genetically that have lot's of joy in raising children, the only counter argument I could see is if the women would care to much that she is completely blinded and ignores dangers, that in the long run kills her and her offspring, but then I would expect a cutoff where it is to much, but below that, I would expect the women that feel most joy hormones from baby nurturing be selected. And that is not just a thesis we can find lot's of science that support this.

      And I disagree that becoming a father is less impressive than becoming a mother is societally, becoming a father at least ideally just means you must have sex 1 time with a women, do you want a price for that? Financing the women while she is not able to work that is something to be proud of, and even away from how much you have suffered, birthing is just more a process of creating than impregnate somebody. That is no social construct, and it's not even limited to the pregnancy itself, female bodies have disadvantages that are specifically there for birthing and pregnancies to some degree change (you could argue) ruins a body to some degree, while it does not change or ruin the male body at all.

      Now you can try to fight the biological reality with strong indoctrination to minimize it, but I don't see the value in that, trying to force people to pretend to be equal as possible when they aren't I see no value in that.

      Something being different is no meaning that something is better or worse, and I don't get this obsession with pretending women are now all computer hackers in hollywood movies and all men are housemaids or something alike, just to reverse the roles, and make man hyper feminine and women hyper masculine.


      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      It doesn't address my point tho, more powerful hardware tends to be more power hungry and it's a priority for such portable devices that they have good autonomy. ARM based ones should be powerful enough while being energy efficient tho.
      First of modern intel atom processors are also fast enough and for netbooks they would be viable and second netbook could also be run on arm processors, even windows runs on arm if neccesary.

      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      Regarding gender neutral language, I support it for the combination of three reasons:
      1. It doesn't hurt;
      When 80% of the population hate it apperently it hurts, and it's not just a emotion it clearly makes it harder to learn the language for foreigners, and german is already known for being pretty difficult to learn.
      Originally posted by sinepgib View Post
      3. If it makes more people feel included, given 1 and 2, I think it's good enough a reason to use it.
      Why making 100% of people suffer for their whole live be it only slightly to help 1% of quer population? The benefit would have to be gigantic for this few people to justify that. Now you could argue but it's also for women, yet most women don't like it, too.
      That's like saying in english latinx, most latinos hate the term yet the white american liberals use it anyway.

      Comment


      • #53
        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        Sorry for the late answer didn't see a email that you answered.
        And I just saw yours! Phoronix is sometimes failing to let me see of the posts it notifies me about saying I don't have permissions, and I always dismiss the page after attempting to open the links.
        I guess it's just notifying me I've been quoted but the post is not yet approved. Kind of a race condition. There are too many Michael users so I don't know who to message about it

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        macros are a subset of s-expression, but not all s-expressions are macros.
        I knew that much. But would you manually need to check no macros are used?

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        I would argue that Racket that did begin long ago but was renamen and marketed as racked since 2010 with some descent success is a good attempt to to make progress.

        I could also see that mainstream languages slowly become more and more like lisp without using s-expressions and maybe offer it optionally, like Julia is pretty hipp right now has basically more or less everything lisp has, except maybe macros .

        Better than any language I know, I would argue that all hipp languages are attempts to bring something from lisp to the non-lisp world, because besides the unusual not so easy to market syntax lisp is king, especially since OOP got a real bad wrap, most better java devs seem to realize that OOP sucks.
        Julia is Lisp-like? I find the language interesting in terms of compilation/runtime but never sat and learned it. I kinda assumed it would look like Python.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        So:
        https://raganwald.com/2013/07/19/jav...is-a-lisp.html
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(programming_language)
        (started also as lisp)
        Ruby:
        Matsumoto describes the design of Ruby as being like a simple Lisp language at its core
        I would argue that python is the biggest "anti"-lisp, the dude hated functional programming and the language has not even block-scope and of course has the fewest parens of all languages
        I find those comparisons quite odd to be honest. What I saw of JS, R and Ruby, while certainly functional rather than OO, doesn't look that different to FORTRAN-inspired languages in terms of syntax. If that's an acceptable trade off for your point, tho, then I now can see Lisp-like languages winning, those are certainly within most programmers' ability to grasp (indeed, JS has the biggest mind share, and Ruby sat at the throne for backend for a long time, just as R did and arguably still does for statistics).

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        Yet some companies and not the smallest like banks or wall mart like companies seem to like lisp, yes the schooling is a problem I get it, but this companies can make that work, and if they can use a slightly better programming that saves computer power that can make a huge difference worth to overcome this problems. While smaller companies more likely don't want to take the risk to use something non-standard.
        Can you give any examples? Big companies tend to set the trend, as they employ much more people than other companies do (at least individually), whatever they say is standard becomes the standard in the medium term.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        Yes just slowly the normal languages become more and more like lisp till they evolve into lisp
        I see them evolving into the functional paradigm, but more in a mixed way. Rust is really an example of that, Python, Ruby, C++, etc. But Rust is a better one in that sense because of immutability by default, which the other languages I named lack. Elixir is also becoming quite popular.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        Yeah in web you have at best webassambly that's as low as it goes nearly nobody wants to compile webpages to binary code somehow. And lisp mostly is mostly bytecode interpreted.
        I very much want to see some move towards WebAssembly as a standard for web apps. I can't fight the web, but at least we can reduce the bloat of using JS for everything.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        It partially happens that such very user friendly things get created, like Hy, it's just that python is such a garbage language that you then use strange python constructs with lisp syntax, so I am not sold that it's for lisp users thing, but yes small projects can make huge differences, it's just that so little effort is done to make lisp accessable, that even it would not take that much, this very little needed often don't happen. But again Clojure is not that professional (btw there you have a good attempt in having something like rails, maybe in 5 years rails problems I see (no orm or something alike get fixed)).

        Again you could see Clojure as that.
        I was under the impression Clojure was just Lisp for the JVM. But yeah, making it more accessible would always help. That applies to every language really.


        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        Well I think in the past governments saw standardisation a good thing, for some reason they did not keep standardising stuff. That said nobody builds things like imap anymore.
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Crispin

        I don't know why the US stopped doing that? Do only morrons work in colleges this day or did the government cut funding and sold the colleges to google?
        I have not the slightest idea about how the US education system fares, but in terms of making standards my wild guess is that the US leaves too much of the technical decisions to the market and intervenes too little. Companies often have more incentives to do their own stuff and be faster to market than their competition than to cooperate with each other to create reasonable standards. Even the web standards are now pretty much the puppets of an oligopoly of the biggest web companies. If Chrome implements something, everyone needs to just follow suit, so in one form or another it will end up as an RFC for the w3c, and that's sadly the best case scenario.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        That's true for big companies / services but this phoronix forum don't need a site specific api, forum would be one of the major things, do you know tapatalk? that tries to support a few main provider and it's proprietary because there is no 1 api standard for forums. Heck there is not even a phoronix-forums app at all so having such standard would just enable this feature to begin with. And while I see that news posts is hard to have them in general clients because you want to post ads and stuff, I don't see that for forums as much.
        Never heard of tapatalk. There are some de facto standards for forums tho. I think Phoronix as a forum is a special case tho. I can't talk for everyone else, but most of the time I end up in the forum because some news article sparks my interest, so the forum may lack ads precisely because the funding comes from ads in the news page.
        I think we could count USENET as a kind of standard for forums tho. It's not _exactly_ that, of course, but similar enough IMO. It just got abandoned for common usage, I guess regular people just find the web browser more accessible. Which doesn't mean you can't have all your clients in a single "browser" app, or a suite as Netscape used to be.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        Yes.
        I disagree, I've seen the mess ad-hoc DSLs can cause in languages like C++ and Ruby, so I can only imagine it gets worse the better the system is (paradoxically, yes).
        But to be fair I don't have experience in the language, so it's like, my opinion dude.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        Maybe yes
        I guess in that case you can enforce that with a linter?

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        Sure but it happend, and the gnu part is the philosophy because even the kernel itself has a version of the gnu/lisense so agrees to at least a older version of the ideal.
        Using a license doesn't necessarily imply a philosophical agreement. In fact, Linus himself doesn't really buy into free as in speech software completely. The license has mandatory technical implications and partially optional philosophical ones. You may buy into the philosophy, which leads to always preferring free software no matter what. Or you may not, and enjoy a system where you can hack what you need when it's given but use commercial proprietary software whenever you find its qualities to please you better.
        In the case of Linus, he preferred the GPL (and in particular version 2) because of the technical implications to the project: he wanted the kernel to be ever improving with changes made by all the users, as it isn't by itself an end product to sell but an enabler for products. If he were to write a media editor that he intends to make profit of he might have chosen a proprietary license instead. Of course, that's pure speculation, but the point is he personally have nothing against proprietary software and he stated so a few times (he does have a gripe with hardware providers that expect the Linux project to do their homework tho).

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        I am to old to proof myself, maybe my heart is to weak, not that I am diagnosed with that, maybe I had some (minor) depression or burnout 10 years ago. Maybe I am just to unhealthy currenty, but I can't bring myself to try to sell myself, the best I could do would be to make my own business.
        Oh, I know that feel. I have diagnosed depression (I even had to commit myself to a psychiatric hospital a few years ago to try some hard medication under a controlled environment), and just as you I was too afraid to switch jobs as a consequence.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        Yes possible, don't know if I restart my career in that field, had some bad luck after college and partially I am to shaded now and partially maybe to unhealthy.
        What do you mean by "shaded"?
        I agree that restarting your career is risky. As adults (since you mention being too old, I can assume you're a proper adult rather than a younger one) we also have some extra responsibilities that discourage taking risks.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        In theory yes... yet our goverment uses many MS tools for governing. There is much talk but much not acting...
        That's curious.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        --- biological discussion
        As previously said, I'd rather not delve into this right now. Besides, it would be a never ending exchange and I think some points we'll just have to agree to disagree.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        First of modern intel atom processors are also fast enough and for netbooks they would be viable and second netbook could also be run on arm processors, even windows runs on arm if neccesary.
        Oh yeah, I didn't intend to imply this wasn't the case.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        When 80% of the population hate it apperently it hurts, and it's not just a emotion it clearly makes it harder to learn the language for foreigners, and german is already known for being pretty difficult to learn.
        That's a fair take. I talked from the POV of a Spanish speaker where it's just changing some 'o's and 'a's by 'e's. It really doesn't change a lot for us, so it's a cheap way to be more welcoming. A similar thing happens with the English language, where most of the language is already gender neutral and you just use the third person.

        Originally posted by blackiwid View Post
        Why making 100% of people suffer for their whole live be it only slightly to help 1% of quer population? The benefit would have to be gigantic for this few people to justify that. Now you could argue but it's also for women, yet most women don't like it, too.
        That's like saying in english latinx, most latinos hate the term yet the white american liberals use it anyway.
        Well, that queer population is people that feel attacked and lives under general societal exclusion I guess. I don't think it's unfair to take them into account.
        I think many latinos hate the latinx term because the latino term itself is a bit reductionist of all of our different cultures much more than whether or not it's written with an 'x'. You don't call half of Europe "latino" when actually the word comes from "latin", from which many of the languages in Western Europe come from. Hey, let's name more than half a continent's people after the language brought by the guys who slaughtered their natives! Sounds like so much fun!
        Nobody calls Italians and Spaniards "Europeans" either, so how about the ones below the US get to have the proper term for people from their country as well?
        So I wouldn't take American liberals as a reference on cultural sensitivity to be honest, they worry more about skin color and the terms they use to refer to that than about recognizing ethnicity (with culture included!) properly or actually doing something to improve their lives.

        Comment

        Working...
        X