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Benchmarks: FreeBSD 13 vs. NetBSD 9.2 vs. OpenBSD 7 vs. DragonFlyBSD 6 vs. Linux

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Classical View Post
    Since FreeBSD 1) is usually slightly more secure than Linux 2) has the highest performance in NginX and 3) has the most stable ZFS implementation, we can conclude that FreeBSD is unquestionably a higher-up operating system for the cloud compared to Linux.
    I'm not going to comment on 2) as other people already pointed out that this used to be the case but Linux caught up later. But the other two points?

    1) Since "security" is one of the worst set phrases in the IT, question here is what you actually mean. First things first: It's really hard to compare FreeBSD to "Linux". To do so we'd have to compare kernels only. But comparing FreeBSD as a whole we'd have to check against some distro - and those tend not to perform the same when it comes to managing e.g. vulnerabilities. It's fair to say that in general in both camps there are people who take things very seriously and do a great job.

    But despite liking FreeBSD a lot (or maybe rather because of it because otherwise I wouldn't care), I will not hold back that there are areas where it leaves a lot to be desired. To say the least. If anybody cares about this, I've written two blog posts about it earlier this year when the OPNsense team announced to switch to vanilla FreeBSD for their base. The first is about where FreeBSD is doing well and the second one is about its bad parts (so that's what the BSD haters might want to read to gear up a little):

    https://eerielinux.wordpress.com/202...-and-security/
    https://eerielinux.wordpress.com/202...ense-for-2022/

    3) This is not true anymore. Since FreeBSD 13 (or 12.2 + ZFS from ports) both Linux and FreeBSD are using the same implementation: OpenZFS. And that's really a great thing for both. Linux used to lag behind quite a bit then caught up and eventually even grew new features of their own. While FreeBSD always stayed close to the illumos upstream (e.g. they implemented TRIM support in the lower layers instead of directly in ZFS to not break compatibility), the Linux port didn't really seem to care for ZFS as a whole. But then they invited FreeBSD to join them - and FreeBSD decided to accept the invitation. So ZFSonLinux was forked and modified to become ZFSonFreeBSD for a short while and the changes were then merged into the new upstream. When it was ready (i.e. the kernel modules for both Linux and FreeBSD could be built from a common repository!), the project was released as OpenZFS 2.0, making both ZFSonLinux and FreeBSD's old implementation based on that of illumos-gate obsolete.

    What is true however is that the integration of ZFS into the system is much better on FreeBSD. It's working well on Linux, too, but it always feels alien, you usually need to manage it yourself (or live with pretty old versions) and it's being actively fought by some of the kernel taliban (most prominently GKH who hates it for licensing reasons). But while ZFS in FreeBSD is very good, you might want to take a look at illumos for the cherry on top. The way that BEs are built to be a native part of the OS still surpasses FreeBSD (which is no wonder since Solaris is where it originated from).

    But let's move on to poke the penguin troll a little more, shall we?

    Originally posted by Volta View Post
    The link you provided is useless, because the one that made the benchmark had no clue about configuring Linux for this workload. Even BSD developer debunked your 'benchmark', but you ignored this. The same applies to nginx.
    I'm not even going to comment on your judgement on uselessness (FreeBSD is popular with developer communities of both Postgres and Nginx - and it shows unless you keep your eyes shut tightly). But since you trust this "BSD developer" so much, I'd like to know how much time you spent on your background check. Do you know who this guy is? I don't. Maybe he is a FreeBSD developer, maybe not. If he is, some of his posts are in violation of the FreeBSD project's values and that's a pretty serious thing as FreeBSD had adopted a crude CoC exactly in that year and things weren't pretty. I've heard more than one random person on the internet claim to be a project member who clearly weren't. There are a couple of rather fishy comments. Then again, he's been involved in a campaign of throwing dirt at OPNsense, took position for Matt Macy and such - maybe he's a Netgate employee and does work on FreeBSD. Still: What's the result of your background check and why do you think that your source is that reliable?

    Not a chance. Linux eats it for breakfast as shown in the link I provided. Furthermore, here are some very old benchmarks when Linux was young, but it didn't stop it from making BSD's to look like a toys:

    http://bulk.fefe.de/scalability/
    You don't know much about Unix and its history, you? The original BSD has been a contender in the "Unix wars" and managed to beat commercial Unix in many regards time and time again (before Linux was even a thought in Torvald's brain). It set the standards in many fields - to this day, BTW. It's not a toy and never was. The BSD derivatives - and especially FreeBSD - quickly built up a fine reputation being used in cases that even commercial offerings could not handle. Linux was wearing diapers at that time. A while later, there was a time when Linux and FreeBSD struggled for superior performance. For a moment one was ahead and a couple of weeks later the other. In addition to true technical advances, there was also a lot of "let's pretend" in the game. Von Leitner's comment that you quote here is from that time and age.

    Linux has had two main advantages: 1) It was a relatively fresh system in contrast to BSD that was weighted down by years and years of old ballast. 2) The USL vs. BSDi case lead to more and more companies going the "better safe than sorry" way and adapting Linux even though it was vastly inferior at that time.

    When it came to the network stack, contrary to your belief, Linux was never a match for FreeBSD. It's not terribly hard to come up with scenarios that make one look better than the other. But you might want to take a look at why Netflix (and thus a company that at a point used to be responsible for 1/3 of the US internet traffic - all from FreeBSD boxes!) is using their OS of choice (though heavily tuned of course). Or why Facebook did quite a bit of work on the Linux side of things to make it perform comparably (they wanted to get rid of the FreeBSD machines they inherited when they acquired WhatsApp among other things).

    FreeBSD doesn't come close to Linux when comes to security and networking performance.
    Depending on what you mean by "security", there's actually some truth to it. Regarding networking performance - that's not generally the case.

    Linux own the cloud and where's FreeBSD? Nowhere.
    Err... Nope. You cannot have done a lot in the cloud if you never ran across FreeBSD. Of course it's available on AWS and the like. Microsoft even maintain their own downstream distribution with a few customizations for Azure.

    FreeBSD doesn't scale above two sockets, so it's a toy OS.
    When did you last try?

    I don't care about ZFS.
    Of course not! Ext4 is totally fine if you're not doing serious work.

    Oh, legacy OSS crap again.
    Good lord! OSS is neither legacy nor is it crap. What is crap is Linux' half-assed attempt at getting sound done that unfortunately also had the name "OSS". It's totally not the same thing. But I guess it's a bit much to ask a penguin to know that there's more out there than just Linux (and Linux is at times much closer to worst-in-class than the opposite)...

    FreeBSD has no single advantage on desktop.
    No idea where you draw your illusions from or why you seem to seriously believe that you could judge a system that you don't know much about (except for some misinformation obviously)? In fact it has enough advantages that I made the switch to FreeBSD after about a decade of only using Linux on all of my devices. I won't claim that there were absolutely no downsides to it, but the benefits clearly outweighed them.

    Linux is better in every single case (including community).
    Now that was a good one! While there are some very bright heads in the Linux community, the amount of trolls, ignoramuses and sheer arrogance is extremely high in comparison. Even though I had witnessed it time and time again, I was a bit surprised of how much hatred fanatical penguins spew at me the renegade, when I started exploring BSD, too. I can guarantee you that the same thing would not happen if I decided to leave *BSD e.g. for illumos.

    Just keep in mind that we're there, too, for when you're ready to leave Linux kindergarten. BSD is for grown-ups.

    Linux is Linux while FreeBSD is Linux wannabe: 'stealing' graphic stack, desktop environments, file systems (this one from slowlaris), it's even emulating Linux, because it can't exist without Linux. You have no clue and I don't care about trollish opinions.
    The troll is complaining about "trolling" when confronted with the fact that not everybody is narrow-minded enough to buy a single "one size fits all" solution? Nice! Setting things straight for anybody who might read this: Linux began as a simple toy project (not "big and professional like GNU"). When it comes to filesystems, they quickly "stole" (to re-use your wording) that of Minix. After more of a decade of crying how unfair it was that companies only ever supported Windows and OSX and demanding more attention "for the others", they quickly forgot about the latter once they started receiving it and have now even turned into the new bully that's out hazing its former comrades and bragging about their status. Now isn't that proof of a lovely character?

    FreeBSD is not trying to be like Linux. Why do the penguins assume that there was any desire for inferior design? Because they think that anyone else would be glad to succumb to "success"? No, sorry. Not everybody agrees to have their values for sale. And when it comes to desktops that's a great field to argue over as well. Why? Because it's the one top area where Linux fails to gain any relevance to this day. There's multiple reasons for this and most of them are not Linux' fault at all. Still it's entertaining to see a troll clutch for such a straw - and even ignoring that among the many popular *nix DEs out there there's no deliberately Linux-only DE!

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    • #62
      Classical
      Ok, Julia is 3x faster than Python + Numba when estimating Pi.
      I assune it's also faster in other cases, well done.

      But, then again, it's still slower than C/C++ and, as I already said, the main reason why Python is used in some contexts is because computationally intensive stuff is not done in Python. If some particular piece of code needs to be as fast as possible, the best way to achieve speed is to write that section in C/C++ and wrap it with one of the many tools available.

      BTW, if you're going to train your model for many hours or days with highly optimized code, possibly running on one or more gpus, I seriously doubt that a couple of seconds of startup delay coming from CPython are going to matter in any way

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Linuxxx View Post

        Playable, because BSD is able to run an unnamed 3D racing game (probably TORCS) & Flightgear?

        Here, let me open 'ya' [] eyes, since 'ya' have been obviously living under a (BSD) rock:

        According to this quote, the Steam Deck with its 800p screen should be able to at least come close to the pixel performance of the Xbox Series X in 4K mode, which is the fastest console currently availabe:

        https://screenrant.com/steam-deck-pe...ox-ps5-switch/

        Now, take a look at what is already possible with this kind of hardware power for real-time 3D graphics in 4K:


        And just to be clear, I'm not saying that the Steam Deck will be able to run games with this much visual fidelity @ 800p, but just to give an example what kind of stress upcoming AAA+ games will put on the Steam Deck running SteamOS!

        So, ask yourself this:
        Would a toy OS like FreeBSD be up to the task like the above?

        If you answer yes, then please try to run properly complex & advanced software like RPCS3 on FreeBSD and report back how it went!
        When I want to game, I am gonna use Windows. Why the fuck should I use Linux for that? Mere fraction of games supported compared to Windows and keeping accompanying software functional is just complete pita considering the breakage Linux routinely has all too often after software updates.. IF there is equivalent software in the first place. Gaming peripherals generally lack any kind of control software for Linux. Same with shit like MSI Afterburner which is good minimally for GPU custom fan profiles, even when you dont care about overclocking, videoclips, screenshots or graphical overlays.

        Flightgear was just cause I was interested whether my VKB Gladiator NXT joystick would function with it and race game was "something simple and free" for my kid. Couldn't find old Colin McRae Rally dvd..

        You can sit Steam Deck into your ass, for all I care. Consoles are for peasants and Linux anticheat support is game vendor dependent. Multiplayer often not available.

        "toy OS FreeBSD" has run Nintendo Switch and last iterations of Playstations for how many years? Seems to be up to it. Answering your own question. Not that I care about these either, also consoles. Grow the fuck up with your "my Linux is da best, I need to prove it to whole world"-bs? It's honestly CHILDISH.
        Last edited by aht0; 13 December 2021, 05:13 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Volta View Post
          ...
          Use whatever you like to use and please get the fuck off from BSD-related topics. Nobody is forcing YOU to use those OS'es, is it? This persistent and childish "my Linux e-penis is better-larger-faster" spamming by you is annoying and childish. Seriously!

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Linuxxx View Post
            Now, take a look at what is already possible with this kind of hardware power for real-time 3D graphics in 4K:
            Looks pretty good - and you hit the nail on the head with it! In the beginning, Keanu Reeves talks about the effects of the first Matrix movie that were revolutionary at that time. I remember vividly the first scenes I saw back then and how breath-taking they were. It's only fitting that they put trusted tech to use for that - and actually used FreeBSD to generate these effects. So congrats on choosing the perfect example! I don't think too many people remember small details like this.

            And just to be clear, I'm not saying that the Steam Deck will be able to run games with this much visual fidelity @ 800p, but just to give an example what kind of stress upcoming AAA+ games will put on the Steam Deck running SteamOS!

            So, ask yourself this:
            Would a toy OS like FreeBSD be up to the task like the above?
            So you're calling the OS that made the Matrix movie possible in the first place a toy OS? Hey sure, why not. We all love to play around with awesome tech, right? And in contrast to prima donna OS where its fans start freaking out so easily, FreeBSD considers itself a general purpose OS. That includes both enterprise workloads as well as serving as a platform for research, study or even just fooling around and getting to know what Unix is all about. But yes, of course FreeBSD is generally capable of doing such things. As it provides the base for consoles like Sony's PS4, FreeBSD actually powers many more AAA games than Linux...

            If you answer yes, then please try to run properly complex & advanced software like RPCS3 on FreeBSD and report back how it went!
            I kind of wish you knew what you were talking about (or at least check before simply making such assumptions!). There is a whole lot of software that does not run on FreeBSD at all or needs to be patched for better POSIX compliance by removing Linuxisms. Your example is a bad one, though.

            When I wanted to take a look what is so complex about this program, I saw that it's a project that does not only support the FreeBSD platform, but the latest version (0.0.19) is available both from ports or pre-built and ready to be installed from the official FreeBSD package repos. A native package being available isn't the case for Arch (where you'd have to use the AUR), Debian, Fedora, and the like, BTW. Just sayin'.

            Originally posted by Classical View Post
            How come Linux, although it gets a lot more subsidies than FreeBSD, has less security than FreeBSD? https://www.techradar.com/news/usb-s...ially-on-linux
            Take good care here - the ice is pretty thin. There's certainly areas where FreeBSD might be considered "more secure" (whatever exactly this is!) than Linux. But as a general statement this is wrong. As a matter of fact, FreeBSD is doing pretty much ok on average - but only because it does quite well in some regards and rather bad in others. Linux has done a ton of work in the last couple of years and FreeBSD has not even tried to keep it up against that. You might be a little too confident in this case.

            Both Nintendo Switch and PlayStation are based on FreeBSD, and they are both probably the two most reliable and stable gaming platforms to ever exist.
            Do you have any more info on the Switch? All I had heard were rumors and admittedly I didn't watch this space for news. For the PlayStation it's a well-known fact, though.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by aht0 View Post
              Use whatever you like to use and please get the fuck off from BSD-related topics. Nobody is forcing YOU to use those OS'es, is it? This persistent and childish "my Linux e-penis is better-larger-faster" spamming by you is annoying and childish. Seriously!
              Oh, another blind BSD fanboy who doesn't see what his brother in faith is doing.

              Comment


              • #67
                To be honest with FreeBSD spokesmans. I've done a quick benchmark and results are astonishing.. I have to admit FreeBSD won by a large margin. Testing methodology was quite simple: I put a FreeBSD and Tux labels on a windowsill and counted how many times some birdie shits on them. FreeBSD clearly won. The shit OS prize goes to FreeBSD. Congratulations. Now you can go to sleep.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Volta View Post
                  To be honest with FreeBSD spokesmans. I've done a quick benchmark and results are astonishing.. I have to admit FreeBSD won by a large margin. Testing methodology was quite simple: I put a FreeBSD and Tux labels on a windowsill and counted how many times some birdie shits on them. FreeBSD clearly won. The shit OS prize goes to FreeBSD. Congratulations. Now you can go to sleep.
                  Just for curiosity do you work in the IT industry?

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Off-topic from comparative benchmarks:

                    Originally posted by Linuxxx View Post
                    … are you guys still hailing nVidia's blob, because that's the only viable option you actually have? …
                    – a sarcastic question that demonstrates true lack of interest.

                    … how is the AMDGPU support on the various BSDs …
                    For anyone with a genuine interest in FreeBSD support for AMD, i915 and Radeon:

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Danielsan View Post
                      … do you work in the IT industry?
                      Things got tough in that industry during lock-down. Look, what someone might do to earn a few extra pennies: <https://www.elle.com/uk/life-and-culture/a33822075/-/>

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