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os108 9.0 Released As One Of The Few Desktop Operating Systems Based On NetBSD

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Volta View Post

    Nobody is saying Unix was perfect. The point is there's no need to write everything from scratch. Linux fixes Unix weak points.
    Linux fixes many of Unix's weak points (but not all) at the kernel level. Linux distros still carry over lots of Unix crust and garbage and although there is a clear drive to improve, it's not without dramas (see the systemd-related hysteria etc.)

    But conversely, there are many things that Windows indeed got right. Some aspects of it are an unmitigated trainwreck but some are good and Linux would be well inspired to learn from them and implement them, even if it means breaking Unix or POSIX compatibility. The NT kernel is free from the antiquated TTY layer (I for one don't need my OS to be first and foremost a giant teletex emulator, thank you very much), it uses ACLs pervasively instead of the moronic U-G-O model and it does them right unlike the so-called POSIX ACLs in Linux, it has kernel support for AIO, it does file locking better (not quite right, but better), it has always used Handles (= fd's) for processes instead of referring to them through PIDs which is 1) wrong (race conditions) and 2) inconsistent with other kernel APIs, etc....

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    • #22
      jacob

      Windows AIO is utter crap. Linux have this, but it has also much better io_uring. User management and permissions on Windows are also complete garbage (I don't even want to mess with Windows acl using a stick). It's such a broken mess.

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      • #23
        Originally posted by jaypatelani View Post
        jacob here is Installation video https://youtu.be/cgAeY21gXR4 Thanks
        Thanks, now it worked for me. So apparently the trick to get MATE to work is NOT to select xdm in the config screen.

        I still think the installer need a lot of work to be more intuitive. DHCP should be the default, timezone should be autodetected (or if that fails, the user should be prompted for it automatically, don't just assume UTC by default), MATE should be installed by default if this is intended to be a desktop distro, similarly partitions should be formatted with the log option by default.

        Otherwise good work, nice to see that even the reputedly most austere OS out there can in fact make a decent desktop. Now it needs some use cases, e.g. scenarios in which the typical FOSS user would indeed benefit from using OS108 as opposed to, say, Ubuntu or Fedora (or even something like GhostBSD),

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        • #24
          Originally posted by Volta View Post
          jacob

          Windows AIO is utter crap. Linux have this, but it has also much better io_uring. User management and permissions on Windows are also complete garbage (I don't even want to mess with Windows acl using a stick). It's such a broken mess.
          io_uring is a radical improvement but it's bleeding edge and not yet considered stable. It's also still nowhere near being used by prod applications. Windows AIO has its issues but it has been undoubtedly superior to the poor man's imitation that Linux had so far. ACLs in general are obviously a superior model to the old Unix 9 bits and while Windows ACLs, again, have their problems, they are MUCH better than what Linux offers in that regards for at least two reasons:

          1. In Linux, ACLs can only be used for actual files, everything else is subject to the UGO model. In Windows, everything uses ACLs.

          2. Windows ACLs define sane permissions including the right to delete a file. In Linux you have to rely either on the demented idea of being allowed to modify the containing directory (e.g. being able to create a file equals the right to delete ANYBODY ELSE's files!) or use the sticky bit, which replaces one giant problem with another one, potentially even worse.

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          • #25
            Thanks jacob I am working and testing on Installer part to get it more automated for end users.

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            • #26
              jacob

              Those two ACL features are nice. When they're working of course. They're overcomplicated on Windows and sometimes have problems with backups, parent directories or advanced settings. Io_uring matures well and already sees it's adoption. Even without it Linux io beats Windows by a large margin on a single disk performance, but io_uring is a game changer and will beat the crap out of Windows aio.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by jacob View Post
                The NT kernel is free from the antiquated TTY layer (I for one don't need my OS to be first and foremost a giant teletex emulator, thank you very much)
                Instead of this it has GUI integrated with kernel which you can't remove if you don't need it and makes kernel more vulnerable. No thanks.

                About file locking - really hate idea you can't touch (read or write) opened file in Windows. Not only uncomfortable but also makes updating much more complicated than on Unix-like.
                Last edited by dragon321; 03-22-2020, 04:50 PM.

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by Volta View Post
                  jacob

                  Those two ACL features are nice. When they're working of course. They're overcomplicated on Windows and sometimes have problems with backups, parent directories or advanced settings. Io_uring matures well and already sees it's adoption. Even without it Linux io beats Windows by a large margin on a single disk performance, but io_uring is a game changer and will beat the crap out of Windows aio.
                  Yes the Windows ACLs have their own problems, being overcomplicated is one of them. Nevertheless they are better than what Linux has to offer in that regard.
                  Linux beats the hell out of Windows in terms of standard (= synchronous) IO, but not AIO; io_uring may help to change that. Historically Linux also didn't have a really good AIO API. The Windows one is rather cumbersome, but at least it's really there.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by dragon321 View Post

                    Instead of this it has GUI integrated with kernel which you can't remove if you don't need it and makes kernel more vulnerable. No thanks.

                    About file locking - really hate idea you can't touch (read or write) opened file in Windows. Not only uncomfortable but also makes updating much more complicated than on Unix-like.
                    That's whataboutery. That Windows has the GUI integrated with the kernel is a bad thing, but that does not suddenly make tty less bad by itself. For file locking, I did say that Windows does not do it quite right, but at least it has a real file locking mechanism (even if it's way too restrictive). Unix doesn't have one at all (.lock files are a pathetic joke); Linux does, but it's never used because unfortunately way too many Linux software is reliant on the Unix/POSIX semantics that should have been declared obsolete a decade or two ago.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by jacob View Post

                      That's whataboutery. That Windows has the GUI integrated with the kernel is a bad thing, but that does not suddenly make tty less bad by itself. For file locking, I did say that Windows does not do it quite right, but at least it has a real file locking mechanism (even if it's way too restrictive). Unix doesn't have one at all (.lock files are a pathetic joke); Linux does, but it's never used because unfortunately way too many Linux software is reliant on the Unix/POSIX semantics that should have been declared obsolete a decade or two ago.
                      Why you even consider builtin TTY as bad feature? You don't have to use or even see it. Look at Android for example - full graphical OS based on Linux. Without implementing GUI in kernel. Isn't it better to have optional TTY than mandatory GUI? If you want Linux with GUI then just install GUI. If you want Windows without GUI then, well, you have problem. It was removed in Vista, XP could start in text mode.

                      For file locking - you're right but I still think managing files in Unix is better because files aren't locked for everything when one process open them. It makes managing and updating a lot easier. This is one reason why Linux updates are basically faster and less problematic than Windows one. Windows 10 made updates bit better, mostly by merging updates in bigger packages (so you have to restart less than in past) but it still not very good compared to Linux which you don't need OS restart in most cases at all. So yeah, I prefer messing with .lock files than shutting down process to access file.

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