That OpenSUSE Tablet So Far Is A Dud

[schmidtbag]

Mirroring the question isn't an answer. Can I please use my experience in Linux on ARM to remind you that the ARM systems with decent GPU drivers are from Qualcomm and (lately) from NXP and they aren't exactly cheaper than equivalent Intel hardware?

It was a rhetorical question, so no, it wasn't really mirroring. Your anecdotes are meaningless; having just 2 regarding unnamed platforms doesn't help your point. There are systems that cost as much or less than an Intel board and are very usable.

Keep in mind, I'm aware there are a lot of real crappy ARM devices out there. I have used 8 different ones myself and most of them I wouldn't recommend for desktop use. But that doesn't unanimously mean ARM is bad at it.

If I have to use cheap crap I'd rather have Android on it that at least is designed to maximize its lifespan, on Linux I'd be left behind in a year tops.

Actually I'd argue the exact opposite. Arch Linux ARM often supports the latest kernels and is very easy to keep up-do-date. Meanwhile, my Android 4.4 based phone is still using the Linux 3.4 kernel and is excluded from many of the latest Android features that I have a use for. There is no upgrade path for my phone. To make this not a personal anecdote of myself, most phones are designed to be obsoleted in a couple years. There are relatively small handful of brands that allow their models to be regularly updated to the latest Android.

To have a GUI-equipped pre-boot environment so I can do basic stuff like booting from a USB key to install my favourite distro without connecting a TTL-USB dongle to the board so I can convince the crappy bootloader?
To have less silly board-specific hacks in my firmware image?

Again, YOUR anecdotes don't speak for all. There are ARM boards out there where you just need to copy a disk image to an SD card and you're good to go. It's actually easier than x86 installers, albeit, you don't get as much control (but then again, there's not a whole lot to configure in the first place).

If you're using an ARM platform that has storage soldered on-board, or, where the manufacturer intentionally neglects Linux, you're going to have a harder time than usual. If you have an ARMv8 platform, things usually get dramatically easier, since that encourages a generic kernel.

[ElderSnake]

Between a rock and a hard place.

You've either got the mainstream market which is the herd of dumb, mindless users who just want to install the likes of whatsapp, Facebook, Snapchat and whatever app flavor of the month to show off with their friends which is already a saturated market and harder to break into.

Or you've got the enthusiasts from the Linux side of things which is just a plain small market and a tablet device may not even be in high demand there.

[Vistaus]

Ok for GNOME, but the second sentence is not totally true.
How's the out-of-the-box multitouch support going? because a few months ago did require some manual setup AND disabling of the onboard touchpad of my small laptop (has a multitouch screen) because its driver was stealing all touch events.
And it still was meh (most if not all applications don't support gestures ala Android so it's much more limited)

GNOME supports multitouch gestures now and there's also a GNOME extension that improves upon it.

But it seems like you've missed the boat here. I mean: anyone producing a tablet with Linux *will* configure and set up multitouch by default, so I don't see how that's an issue here (not to mention the fact that barely any tablet has a touchpad).

[Vistaus]

Between a rock and a hard place.

You've either got the mainstream market which is the herd of dumb, mindless users who just want to install the likes of whatsapp, Facebook, Snapchat and whatever app flavor of the month to show off with their friends which is already a saturated market and harder to break into.

Or you've got the enthusiasts from the Linux side of things which is just a plain small market and a tablet device may not even be in high demand there.

True. The Linux market is small, but on the other hand: there's more potential there, mainly because the Linux market isn't saturated. With the right amount of marketing (which could be done for free through tech blogs like OMG! Ubuntu and Phoronix since sites like these are where a lot of Linux people hang out), good communication and a decent offer, I'm sure there's quite something to gain. It's not gonna make manufacturers rich, but if done right they could breakeven.

[starshipeleven]

I never said anything about out-of-the-box multitouch. It exists and it is functional for a tablet. Keep in mind I said "decent", which doesn't mean "good" or anything better.
If a tablet is being made for Linux and comes shipped with Linux, I'm sure it will have a good out-of-box experience.

The tablet itself might, but the linux application ecosystem won't. As I said even if multitouch was pre-configured out of the box the main issue is that most Linux applications are still designed with keyboard and mouse as input and a PC-sized screen.

[starshipeleven]

It was a rhetorical question, so no, it wasn't really mirroring. Your anecdotes are meaningless; having just 2 regarding unnamed platforms doesn't help your point. There are systems that cost as much or less than an Intel board and are very usable.

Please state what such systems you have that cost less and are more usable than a random Intel tablet, I'm interested in them too.

Keep in mind, I'm aware there are a lot of real crappy ARM devices out there. I have used 8 different ones myself and most of them I wouldn't recommend for desktop use. But that doesn't unanimously mean ARM is bad at it.

I just said that ARM stuff that is more or less in line with Intel's stuff (computing power and mostly-mainline drivers) costs around the same, so your claim that ARM is cheaper is not true in the conditions we are talking about.

Actually I'd argue the exact opposite.

Are you comparing a device with open drivers or not? because the ones with closed blobs are better off with Android as newer apps aren't required to target latest android and most still target ancient versions for that reason.
While on Linux after a year or so (or 5 years if you are using Debian stable or Ubuntu LTS) you will have to keep your own old xorg and other stuff.

There are ARM boards out there where you just need to copy a disk image to an SD card and you're good to go. It's actually easier than x86 installers, albeit, you don't get as much control (but then again, there's not a whole lot to configure in the first place).

And your favourite distro might or might not be supported (nothing that can't be done manually, usually, but still annoying).

If you're using an ARM platform that has storage soldered on-board, or, where the manufacturer intentionally neglects Linux, you're going to have a harder time than usual. If you have an ARMv8 platform, things usually get dramatically easier, since that encourages a generic kernel.

I'm unsure of what you mean here, dts tables (written in flash so independent from the system image, or placed in a folder known by bootloader) can be used on any ARM system whose bootloader (and kernel of course) supports the feature.

[starshipeleven]

GNOME supports multitouch gestures now and there's also a GNOME extension that improves upon it.

But it seems like you've missed the boat here. I mean: anyone producing a tablet with Linux *will* configure and set up multitouch by default, so I don't see how that's an issue here (not to mention the fact that barely any tablet has a touchpad).

It seems you missed the point linked to that:
People interested in a Linux tablet will likely want to install their own favourite distro.

And the fact that GNOME itself supports multitouch gestures (Also kde does) means nothing if most applications themselves aren't designed for touch interfaces in the first place, which is another turndown.

Really, it seems like people here never interacted with Android tablets or something.

[Vistaus]

It seems you missed the point linked to that:
People interested in a Linux tablet will likely want to install their own favourite distro.

So? Then they could provide the drivers so that they're easily installable on other distros, making configuration a non-issue.

And FYI: I've had a Motorola Xoom tablet a couple of years ago. Sold it and grabbed myself an HP Touchpad (with webOS) after a few months and have used the Touchpad for a few years since. Eventually I gave up on it (I still have it though!) and got myself a Bq Aquaris M10 FHD with Ubuntu Touch (which I've also abandoned now). I've also had a Lenovo Ideapad with touch screen in the past and also an MS Surface Pro 3 with Linux on it. So I do have a lot of experience with touch screens and tablets.

[GreatEmerald]

In the mean while I picked up an HP x2 210 tablet instead, and it's running Gentoo GNOME pretty well so far. I'm documenting the process here: https://www.phoronix.com/forums/foru...st-for-tablets

Cherry Trail really seems like the way to go to me. It's finally in good shape with the latest kernel, and you can run Android x86 and Remix OS on it too, if you want even more touch-friendliness. No need to worry about blobs or custom kernels.

[Vistaus]

Btw, I think the only Linux tablet to make it will be the Librem 11: https://puri.sm/products/librem-11/