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Devuan 1.0 Makes It To A Release Candidate: Debian Without Systemd

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  • #21
    Originally posted by Stoatally View Post

    So what you're saying is your make bad decisions?
    Hea, say what you will man. Least Devuan shows not everyone in the Linux camp wants a free windows like OS. I totally support them, right on Devuan. you also lost Gentoo founder Daniel Robbins. Funtoo is systemd free.

    Slackware too. These are real people who've taken years of their lives to make really serious distros. You might think about the decisions of potterings for a moment instead of blindly supporting it. Not all is great and holy in the Linux camp. like musl as opposed to glibc. Fix it and make it better don't just tell these people to go F off. You have problems in the system design and we are trying to tell you that.. when this bites you down the road and Linux is a bloated pile of shit.. don't say you weren't warned.
    Last edited by k1e0x; 21 April 2017, 05:52 PM.

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    • #22
      Do they still use the archaic SysVinit or finally switched to something better (OpenRC etc.)?

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      • #23
        Totally support them, right on Devuan. you also lost Gentoo founder Daniel Robbins. Funtoo is systemd free.
        Having used gentoo for about ten years and knowing some gentoo guys:
        Daniel Robbins has quite a past on doing the opposite of right things. If he removes systemd, systemd must be a very good idea.

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        • #24
          If some skiddies and an angry weeb sysadmin want to waste their time writing a non-functional shell script to replace a well-designed set of efficient and stable programs with broad scrutiny, well what business is it of ours to complain?

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          • #25
            Originally posted by microcode View Post
            If some skiddies and an angry weeb sysadmin want to waste their time writing a non-functional shell script to replace a well-designed set of efficient and stable programs with broad scrutiny, well what business is it of ours to complain?
            Hea, if a mass populous wants to throw shit at the wall till something sticks instead of designing a good system, who are we to complain?

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            • #26
              All the best to devuan - and all other Linux distributions out there.

              But I would still recommend using something else: The community is really toxic and hostile to any change and only united in their hate of systemd. They have hardly any packagers, which leads to long delays to get and devuan-specific package fixed. Most packages are taken straight from debian, so that is not too much of a hassle. What worries me is that they basically rip out anything with "systemd" in the package name, without even an attempt to understand why the code is there and what it does. That is dangerous as the systemd code often is there to restrict access to devices. The X server is one such example: Devuans configuration is probably fine for a single user system, but I do strongly recommend not to use it for a multi-user setup.

              And in all this time they have not managed to rip out core systemd parts like udev! Does not say systemd in the package name, so that apparently was not spotted yet:-)

              If you want systemd-style, go check void Linux instead: Nicer community with a positive vision of what they want to do. And developers that actually know what they are doing, too.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by k1e0x View Post

                Hea, say what you will man. Least Devuan shows not everyone in the Linux camp wants a free windows like OS. I totally support them, right on Devuan. you also lost Gentoo founder Daniel Robbins. Funtoo is systemd free.

                Slackware too. These are real people who've taken years of their lives to make really serious distros. You might think about the decisions of potterings for a moment instead of blindly supporting it. Not all is great and holy in the Linux camp. like musl as opposed to glibc. Fix it and make it better don't just tell these people to go F off. You have problems in the system design and we are trying to tell you that.. when this bites you down the road and Linux is a bloated pile of shit.. don't say you weren't warned.
                few fixes.

                1.) Gentoo support systemd just fine if you decide to use it when emerging, same with openrc and sysV


                etc.

                2.) Musl problems for mass adoption are actually technical
                a.) is not part of GNU so some distros are allergic to it
                b.) Musl is not totally 100% supported on GCC and clang unlike Glibc, so is not as trivial as you think for distros makers to use it
                c.) is not binary interchangeable with glibc, so is not trivial to adopt
                d.) musl don't support certain ancient code still present in Glibc and that will break many very old commercial applications out there(I don't care too much about this one tho)

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by jrch2k8 View Post

                  few fixes.

                  1.) Gentoo support systemd just fine if you decide to use it when emerging, same with openrc and sysV


                  etc.

                  2.) Musl problems for mass adoption are actually technical
                  a.) is not part of GNU so some distros are allergic to it
                  b.) Musl is not totally 100% supported on GCC and clang unlike Glibc, so is not as trivial as you think for distros makers to use it
                  c.) is not binary interchangeable with glibc, so is not trivial to adopt
                  d.) musl don't support certain ancient code still present in Glibc and that will break many very old commercial applications out there(I don't care too much about this one tho)
                  Sure, I know this, My point is systemd is a symptom of the problems with Linux, its not the cause by itself. it's the culture and the way they go about designing stuff. btrfs is another example. epoll another, kvm is another and it goes on and on and on it doesn't end because you don't see the problems with taking shortcuts to system design and how it will hurt you. You just implement it and hope it gets better/fixed. Linux isn't a small simple system anymore, that no longer works you need to actually plan stuff out now.

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                  • #29
                    Really the claims that systemd is windows like is wrong. Systemd is based off the ideas of SMF and Launch. The process systemd is using is EEI Embrace Extend Integrate what is IBM method. Yes I know its one word different to Microsoft Embrace Extend Exterminate. The key difference is the world Exterminate where something is embraced with the idea of ceasing the feature in future where Integrate is the object to become the only source of that feature.

                    Now the reason why systemd could be shipped in production systems defective is that sysvinit was defective and systemd only had to be better than sysvinit in many cases. That type file clean up stuff up

                    Do NOT run the reproducer without a proper backup and/or on a production system! How to reproduce: # mkdir -p /foo/dir{1,2} # touch /foo/.bar{1,2} # cat /etc/tmpfiles.d/test.conf R! /foo/.* - - - -...

                    As mentioned here. History has happened with sysvinit under Linux. rm in coreutils was patched to prevent it. Posix standard define of what rm should do does not say it is forbin so if you are using some random rm command with sysvinit that fault could happen. Its interesting how many faults in systemd also turn out to be sysvinit faults in the conner cases.

                    sysvinit is not compatible with the Linux kernel. Most alternative init systems are not Linux kernel compatible. Why they contain a invalid presume. Linux kernel recycles PID numbers. So using a PID number to work out if a service is working or not is invalid under Linux Kernel. You will find lot of sysvinit files do this error.

                    We need to be realistic here a project wanting to support multi init systems that is good. A project going a head and supporting multi init systems that happen to be Linux kernel incompatible is well and truly wasting the movement for multi init systems time.

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by phrx_reader View Post
                      Good luck being incredibly naive opinion about what *nix is. Maybe you should switch to a Windows/Apple solution instead.
                      That is a pretty ironic thing to say since Apple is also a *nix (in fact it is a Unix, unlike Linux). Maybe you should learn "about what *nix is" before telling other people to.

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