TrueOS Making Use Of OpenRC Init System, Faster Boot Times

[starshipeleven]

I really think Linux users should have choice and choosing the init system that works best for them. Why is systemd being rammed down our collective throats? As I use Debian, I feel that Debian devs should build packages that don't strictly have systemd as a dependency. On first install why not allow Debian users to select what init system they want? I liked the old standby, the SysV init system...and things aren't really bloated. Systemd seems to be taking over

Please complain to your distro's maintainers, it's your distro maintainers that are forcing their own opinions on you, not systemd that does mind tricks on them. Although the fact that most distro maintainers are now avoiding sysvinit like plague should tell something about how shitty it was for them.
There are other less-known distros without systemd (that aren't Gentoo that I hear is harder to use), and are usually using OpenRC or Runit (sysvinit derivatives).

I personally think Devuan is run by idiots and you should try other more serious distros you find in this list like Alpine Linux or Void Linux http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page but it's probably only me.

[starshipeleven]

Let me correct that a little:

Gentoo is all about choice.

In Gentoo you can even choose to have a BSD kernel if you like. And it supports systemd as well as openrc. The only real pain is when userland software suddenly starts having hard dependencies on systemd. Iirc. gdm3 would pull in systemd no matter what (thus rendering it unusable for BSDs?).

Please note, "Linux" means "all distros with Linux kernel" and yes there is a buttload of choice, if you don't like Gentoo you can try Alpine or Void linux and enjoy lack of systemd as long as you like. see here how much choice there still is http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

[Vistaus]

I really think Linux users should have choice and choosing the init system that works best for them. Why is systemd being rammed down our collective throats? As I use Debian, I feel that Debian devs should build packages that don't strictly have systemd as a dependency. On first install why not allow Debian users to select what init system they want? I liked the old standby, the SysV init system...and things aren't really bloated. Systemd seems to be taking over

And why is OpenRC being rammed down the collective throats of TrueOS users? Come on dude, there's always going to be a default init system in every Linux/BSD distro (unless it's one you set up from scratch yourself, like Gentoo for example), so there's always something being rammed down your throat, whether that's SysV, systemd or OpenRC.

[Delgarde]

I really think Linux users should have choice and choosing the init system that works best for them. Why is systemd being rammed down our collective throats? As I use Debian, I feel that Debian devs should build packages that don't strictly have systemd as a dependency. On first install why not allow Debian users to select what init system they want? I liked the old standby, the SysV init system...and things aren't really bloated. Systemd seems to be taking over

Ultimately, it's because choices don't come for free. If you want to use a distro and you want to have a choice between systemd and openrc or sysvinit, someone has to do the work to provide you with that choice. And it turns out that not enough people are interested in doing so.

[MoonMoon]

It seems to me a lot of people are confused about the "Linux is all about choice" bit. Yes, indeed it is, but not about the end users choice in the first place, it is all about choice for developers, how to put their distributions together, which parts to use, which not to use, ... . The only choice end users have is to put the feet where the mouth is: if you don't like how other people, those that do the actual work, do their work then just f*****g use their work, choose the distribution instead with developers that have a mindset similar to yours. Don't use Arch or Debian and complain all day how the developers don't work like you would like them to do, go for Gentoo or Slackware instead. Or just do the f*****g work yourself, there are even eople that like Slackware and systemd, so they just went ahead and created systemd packages for Slackware

[ldo17]

It seems to me a lot of people are confused about the "Linux is all about choice" bit. Yes, indeed it is, but not about the end users choice in the first place, it is all about choice for developers, how to put their distributions together, which parts to use, which not to use, ... .

No, it is about the choices of the community. This includes everybody who takes an active part at whatever level, whether developer, package maintainer, documentation writer, or even someone who just helps solve problems on support forums. This doesn’t include the merely passive users, or those who offer nothing more than trying to pick holes in what’s on offer, without having any suggestions as to what would be better.

(This also explains why Windows is not a platform that encourages Open Source development: sure, you can get a lot more users there, but you won’t really grow the community.)

There is a saying in Open Source: “those who write the code make the rules”. I would broaden that: “those who contribute to the community make the rules”. If you don’t like how things work, feel free to show the rest of us how it’s done. Actions speak louder than words.

[FireBurn]

As someone who's used both OpenRC and systemd on Gentoo I can say without a doubt systemd is quicker

[aht0]

It seems to me a lot of people are confused about the "Linux is all about choice" bit. Yes, indeed it is, but not about the end users choice in the first place, it is all about choice for developers, how to put their distributions together, which parts to use, which not to use, ... .

The only choice end users have is to put the feet where the mouth is: if you don't like how other people, those that do the actual work, do their work then just f*****g use their work, choose the distribution instead with developers that have a mindset similar to yours.

Don't use Arch or Debian and complain all day how the developers don't work like you would like them to do, go for Gentoo or Slackware instead. Or just do the f*****g work yourself, there are even people that like Slackware and systemd, so they just went ahead and created systemd packages for Slackware

Rather arrogant attitude. If the choice is "all about developers" then what exactly is the significance of the users? What are they for? Not everyone have capability of putting packages/distributions together, not from cold start. You'd have to start learning from somewhere. You may as well start teaching swimming by throwing people off gangplank in the middle of Atlantic ocean. If the paradigm of the distro is making nice dumbuser installers (so that even grandmother could install it) then it should as well follow the philosophy througly and also listen to everybody and count with their opinions.

User may be very well forced to use certain distribution because other distros perhaps are not working on his/her particular machine, user has no expertise (yet) for fixing the issues on his/her own, some hardware and it's packages may be limited to certain distro (national identity cards and encryption related functions thereof for example).. What the hell else is she/he to do besides vocal complaints? Besides, problems less experienced users may meet are more easily solvable on popular distro with bigger user base because probability that someone else has had identical issue and has had found solution, increases accordingly.

Use distro with different init? Well, for starters, how many are such around? Starshipeleven brought out Alpine. Ok, let's look at it. You are fucked if you have Nvidia graphics, you are limited to XFCE desktop and amount of binary packages is not too numerous. Why? Because software making use of glibc GNU extensions does not really want to compile against musl libc. Joys of "going beyond POSIX" some folks here have heartily applauded arguing in BSD threads - biting back your own ass. Alpine is perfect for virtualization and pretty good for routing-firewalling. End of story.

Mint is migrating to systemd, or already has, haven't checked it after "Rosa".

PCLinuxOS. Only distro I know which beginner could install from start to end and which does not come with systemd. Now, what if you cannot accept rolling-release and instabilities it tends to introduce in long-term?

Devuan, haven't tried it, can't comment. Gentoo and Slackware - unusable for "average Joe". Setting up Gentoo machine for the first time may take whole week. Tinkering and setting up Slackware, more or less same when you have very little know-how about Linux.

There really is no choice when it comes to Linux init. Not for average user. For power user certainly. IF he/she has sufficient free time in hands..

[MoonMoon]

Rather arrogant attitude. If the choice is "all about developers" then what exactly is the significance of the users? What are they for?

In the first place, developers/contributors usually don't start a new distro to appease to some users, they do it to have a distribution developed in their own mindset, how they think a distribution should look like. How different distributions handle requests of their users is entirely up to them, their is no ruleset about that. There are distributions that have the "the user has a say" mindset, there are those that have a "the contributors have a say" mindset, and there are those with the "we have a BDFL and he rules" mindset.

Of course, the set of users capable of rolling their own distro is rather small, but that by no means gives them a say in the direction [Insert Random Distro Here] is developing. And it gives them no say in which init system the distro has to use, or if the distro has to offer a choice. Demanding that they should have is the real arrogant attitude, IMHO.

So, if you ask "what is the significance of the user" the answer has to be "he/she is the one to choose which distribution to use", but that doesn't mean that the developers have to care about him, if that isn't the mindset of the distribution. And if there isn't a distribution that fits to their means then they have the choice to develop one themself, or (if they are uncapable of doing so) to find other people that will help with the work, or just pay them to do so (maybe start a Kickstarter campaign, ...).

[aht0]

I'll tell you this. Without users, distro is soon dead. Make your conclusions.