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Feral Still Won't Confirm Or Deny Vulkan For Deus Ex On Linux

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  • #21
    Originally posted by bridgman View Post
    I guess that's the question - is there a multi-platform API that runs over DX12/Windows, Vulkan/Linux and Metal/MacOS ?

    Or even Vulkan/Windows / Vulkan/Linux / Metal/MacOS ?
    In open source we often want to target as many platforms as possible and make code work on as much as possible.

    Is this true in proprietary? Or can a company justify a high bill because the technologies selected from the get-go were vendor lockin and porting will require lots of work therefore lots of money?

    I wouldn't be surprised if it was more financially advantageous to select software that is terrible from a developer standpoint.

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    • #22
      Can I replace "community" with "commercial", since AFAIK that split fits the questions better.

      Last time I was involved with commercial ISVs the up-front decision making was driven by cost-to-Windows-market and porting decisions were made later, often after development was substantially for fully completed. So cost of porting was a non-issue when making technology choices.

      My impression is that that is still largely the case today (which is how companies doing ports get stuck with limited budgets and difficult-to-port code bases*), although there are a small-but-growing number of cases where porting decisions** are made early in the development cycle and so cost of porting is factored into technology decisions.

      Community projects tend to have a much stronger cross-platform focus - partly I guess because of the desire to make the result as broadly useful as possible, and partly because the contributors tend to be more interested in non-Windows platforms from the start.

      * for what it's worth, I think the Linux community is far too critical of the teams who work on Linux ports, without understanding the constraints they have to live with

      ** or, more to the point, porting decisions which are not "Windows only"
      Last edited by bridgman; 24 October 2016, 11:11 PM.
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      • #23
        Originally posted by oooverclocker View Post
        Vulkan runs over Vulkan/Windows / Vulkan/Linux and Metal/MacOS by using Molten VK or just ignoring these seperatist tech terrorists. DX12 doesn't even run on WIndows 7.
        Ahh, that's the path I had forgotten. Looks like MoltenVK has come together pretty well over the last few months. They're even local (Toronto area):

        MoltenVK is an implementation of Vulkan that runs on Apple's Metal graphics framework. Move to the next-generation Vulkan graphics API on iOS and OS X.



        So Vulkan/Windows, Vulkan/Linux, Vulkan/MoltenVK/Metal/MacOS seems like it should be viable fairly soon.
        Last edited by bridgman; 24 October 2016, 11:13 PM.
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        • #24
          Originally posted by ElectricPrism View Post

          In open source we often want to target as many platforms as possible and make code work on as much as possible.

          Is this true in proprietary? Or can a company justify a high bill because the technologies selected from the get-go were vendor lockin and porting will require lots of work therefore lots of money?

          I wouldn't be surprised if it was more financially advantageous to select software that is terrible from a developer standpoint.
          For game devs it is often the case that they don't want to develop for multiple platforms if they don't have to as it's lot of work to iron out the bugs of multiple platforms. However, DX12 only being on Windows 10 is a bit of a draw back as Steams stats show that it only has about 50% install base. Ontop of that the percentages of people that have DX12 capable GPU on Win10 vs those that have one not on Win10 are about equal. Thus the game studios would only be seeing half their potential customers for a DX12 game vs a comparable Vulkan game. That's a significant number even if you only develop it for Windows variants.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by andrebrait View Post

            I can understand when you're going to release the thing only for Windows, but if you're going multiplatform, why not just use the Multiplatform APIs instead of using one for each platform? That's what puzzles me. It's like trying to do something multiplatform by programming the GUI in GTK for Linux, Cocoa for Mac and Win32 stuff for Windows when just Qt would do the job just fine (not starting a API/library war here, guys, just used those as an example).
            In terms of using DX <= 11 rather than OpenGL, it's because DX has better tools and documentation, making it easier to work with for people not intimately familiar with OpenGL. One of the issues with OpenGL is that there is a dozen ways to do everything and only one of those ways will yield optimum performance in any given case scenario and it can be very difficult to know which is said way unless you're an OpenGL guru.

            As for using DX12 over Vulkan, it's a matter of DX12 having a nearly 1 year head start. A lot of game engines still don't support Vulkan right now. It took a year+ for games to really start appearing with DX12 support. Vulkan has only been out for just over half a year.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by sirdilznik View Post

              In terms of using DX <= 11 rather than OpenGL, it's because DX has better tools and documentation, making it easier to work with for people not intimately familiar with OpenGL. One of the issues with OpenGL is that there is a dozen ways to do everything and only one of those ways will yield optimum performance in any given case scenario and it can be very difficult to know which is said way unless you're an OpenGL guru.

              As for using DX12 over Vulkan, it's a matter of DX12 having a nearly 1 year head start. A lot of game engines still don't support Vulkan right now. It took a year+ for games to really start appearing with DX12 support. Vulkan has only been out for just over half a year.
              Yeah, I get this. But... well, I'm no game developer, but the thing is: rthey would end up doing OpenGL anyway (they ported to Linux, didn't they?) so programming it in DX11 on Windows and then OpenGL for Linux instead of just doing OpenGL is weird. I mean, I can understand that they just don't care if their OpenGL code ifs gonna be good, since it's only going to run on Linux and they don't give a damn about Linux, so they focus on DX11 on Windows, which is where they care about quality, which they know they can't achieve using OpenGL. Only then I understand these decisions but meh, as I said, I'm no game developer. I do desktop stuff, but I have never touched a single line of OpenGL/D3D code.

              Sometimes I just wish everyone went with open standards and just got rid of proprietary sh*t.

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              • #27
                Originally posted by bridgman View Post
                Can I replace "community" with "commercial", since AFAIK that split fits the questions better.

                On the "commerical" side is is then again split between whether the vendor's customers are consumers or companies.

                When you sell to consumers you can sell Windows-only and hope that none of your competitors can deliver, e.g. a macOS version before you can.
                When you are selling to companies, you have almost certainty that at least one competitor will not be restricted to e.g. Windows Server only.

                Vendors of the first type are now in serious trouble since their single-platform code bases are not only very difficult to port to other desktop operating systems, their code bases are almost impossible to port to any kind of mobile device.

                Not that their staff would be able to do it anyway, they often have zero knowledge about anything outside their platform or, even worse, outside a specific IDE/tool set.


                Cheers,
                _

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                • #28
                  So, does anybody watch their event on twitch.tv?
                  It seems, that site is flash-only :-(
                  I will not install this trojan horse.

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                  • #29
                    They just confirmed:

                    "...we are looking towards Vulkan implementation in the first half of next year."


                    yeah :-)

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                    • #30
                      Originally posted by DMJC View Post
                      ... Meanwhile DirectX 12 is still the king of APIs on Microsoft. ...
                      Please notice that DirectX 12 is only available on Microsoft Windows 10.
                      What about Windows 7 and 8.1?

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