It Looks Like Canonical Will Soon Publish Vulkan Mir Support On Mesa

[Guest]

ITT (like most others involving Mir): Mir/Ubuntu/Unity/Canonical bad, Wayland/everyone else good

[linuxforall]

People seem to forget that there are alternatives to stock Ubuntu with your desktop environment of choice. People are really praising Ubuntu MATE 16.04.

Yep but I guess its made by Canonical so spyware as well

[starshipeleven]

Eh go back to using windows vista. You will love all that bloatware, since you are using a desktop you shouldnt care right? Why should i have to look up anything when i have been using gentoo for years exactly for this reason, to remove bloat. That i am using a desktop with 2 ssds and 32gb ram doesnt matter.

Still not saying why systemd is bloated.

So let me guess, nobody can tell the difference but you can. Got it. Your hypocrisy and attempts at strawmans and red herrings are hilarious.

You left out (on purpose) the "without looking under the hood", blatantly changing the meaning of my words.
Citing logical fallacies you don't understand isn't saving you.

[starshipeleven]

Why should i have to look up anything when i have been using gentoo for years exactly for this reason, to remove bloat. That i am using a desktop with 2 ssds and 32gb ram doesnt matter.

This is typical XP-era mentality that brings people to remove all non-critical things as the OS is crap and cannot run decently. It stopped making sense with Win7 and onwards, when they finally decided to put to sleep unused services like linux/unix does.

You have no idea of the idiots that still complain "ooh, but linux/Win7+ has 123454323 processes running! So much bloat! Must tear down half the system to remove them!" And I answer "no stupid dumbass, they are sleeping as indicated also by the task manager application, not using resources, this is NOT XP"

Performance differences between init systems are minor, recompiling all shit from source with O3 optimizations yelds again... minor differences.

Why? Because your fucking PC isn't an embedded device, the differences are not enough to matter.

Meanwhile recompiling Android or whatever embedded firmware with O3 is recommended, because the processors are crappy enough that it matters.

So let me guess, nobody can tell the difference but you can. Got it. Your hypocrisy and attempts at strawmans and red herrings are hilarious.

You dropped "if you don't look under the hood", changing the meaning. How is called the logical fallacy where you twist words of other people?

[starshipeleven]

Yep but I guess its made by Canonical so spyware as well

I thought the integration with Amazon and other web services was only of Unity shell (so any search you do is also sent to them).

[starshipeleven]

ITT (like most others involving Mir): Mir/Ubuntu/Unity/Canonical bad, Wayland/everyone else good

As I said already, not following standards and reinventing the wheel is frowned upon in linux world.

[cj.wijtmans]

This is typical XP-era mentality that brings people to remove all non-critical things as the OS is crap and cannot run decently. It stopped making sense with Win7 and onwards, when they finally decided to put to sleep unused services like linux/unix does.

I loved the stripped down XP versions before i got into linux. It ran much better.

You have no idea of the idiots that still complain "ooh, but linux/Win7+ has 123454323 processes running! So much bloat! Must tear down half the system to remove them!" And I answer "no stupid dumbass, they are sleeping as indicated also by the task manager application, not using resources, this is NOT XP"

You realize processes "wake up" once in a while messing with schedulers and increasing latency? Even on linux. Its not just cpu cycle bloat, its also RAM and disk bloat. bloat is bloat.

Performance differences between init systems are minor, recompiling all shit from source with O3 optimizations yelds again... minor differences.

Keep up the strawman/red herring. I never complained about performance regarding init systems. I complained about bloat.

Why? Because your fucking PC isn't an embedded device, the differences are not enough to matter.

Seriously go back to windows vista and bloatware ubuntu. Benchmarks speak for themself how a generic distro performance so much worse.

You dropped "if you don't look under the hood", changing the meaning. How is called the logical fallacy where you twist words of other people?

I didnt "drop" anything i literally broke up your two sentences into three quotes without leaving anything.

[unixfan2001]

I actually use gentoo and its openrc. The one whoms trolling is you. PS i use systemd anyway. But its bloatware.

systemd is not bloatware (far from it. It's more unixy than any other system manager) and I doubt you could even point out its supposed bloat without quoting dubious sources written by the creators of vapourware (here's looking at you, uselessd!).

[starshipeleven]

I loved the stripped down XP versions before i got into linux. It ran much better.

Because it was a crappy OS. Later designs didn't have the need to "optimize" anything. That's what I was saying.

You realize processes "wake up" once in a while messing with schedulers and increasing latency? Even on linux. Its not just cpu cycle bloat, its also RAM and disk bloat. bloat is bloat.

I still fail to see any quantifications in performance benchmarks.

"wasting disk space" is another thing that comes from the XP era, that makes no kind of sense in the modern world. Linux system per-se + standard applications occupes a few GBs, 99% of the space in the disk is my stuff and my programs.

What you say has any importance only on embedded devices, where things like CPU and disk schedulers have some effect on performance. There are at least 30 different cpu schedulers for Android devices, and at least 10 disk schedulers.

On desktop, not so much (of course as long as you don't use powersave duh!).

Keep up the strawman/red herring. I never complained about performance regarding init systems. I complained about bloat.

"bloat" implies a performance impact.
If there is no performance impact, it's not bloat.

Seriously go back to windows vista and bloatware ubuntu. Benchmarks speak for themself how a generic distro performance so much worse.

Vista does not exist anymore, anywhere. There are orders of magnitude more XP than Vista.
The benches I've seen don't show large performance differences.
Big performance differences depend from the DE or drivers.

I didnt "drop" anything i literally broke up your two sentences into three quotes without leaving anything.

Do you need visual aide?

Original post:

Even assuming you didn't just looked it up, the point still stands, you cannot tell the difference, because there isn't, regardless of the FUD.

It's an init system, none usually can tell the difference without looking under the hood. (systemd boots dramatically faster than sysvinit/upstart, don't know about openrc)

The only ones that can claim it is too "bloated" for them are embedded distros like OpenWRT/LEDE, where it's a bit complex to fit systemd in a 4-8MB root file system.

You quoted this:

you cannot tell the difference




none usually can tell the difference




systemd boots dramatically faster than sysvinit/upstart, don't know about openrc

[jrch2k8]

boy i miss the old days when lennart haters had decent arguments instead of beating endlessly the same dead horse but i still love how those wanna be experts try to expose the strongest point of systemd as a flaw and after all this time they still fail so miserably.

If at this point in time you cannot understand why systemd is (practically speaking like in production) is at least 5X more resource friendly/secure and performant than any SYSV clone ever was, please go back to your facebook games and stop humiliating yourself or put some actual effort into understanding properly how Linux handle resources(like SMP/memory allocations as on Hot and Cold, caches, preloading, scheduling, etc) and why exactly the interfaces used on systemd are actually important(namespace, cgroups, seccomp, affinity, RT niceness, etc).

Btw, systemd is KISS compliant and way less bloated than any SYSV clone, in fact is more efficient than BASH actually, again try to actually understand why instead of quoting some hater that probably know less about it than you do.

anyway i won't reply to trolling or any other form on non-educated rants and/or comparisons based on personal feelings without actual facts.

mmm, to saves some time. Yes journald had issues with binary format and tooling, this day tools are good enough and since i use ZFS(including root partition at boot with zraid) everywhere this days the corruption issue is gone for me, so yeap lennart was right it is a FS issue(in the FS defense is not a common scenario either since what journald does is factually impossible to do with SYSV)