Originally posted by lkcl
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The OpenPOWER ISA EULA Draft Published - Generous For Libre Hardware
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Originally posted by madscientist159 View Post
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Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
hardware is a pipe dream until such time as chip fabrication technology becomes accessible to consumers in their own homes,
for Libre teams - those willing to do something different, radical and out of the box, it turns out that anonymous companies, constrained by their influence in areas they have a conflict of interest, are finding creative and indirect ways to sponsor them.
all it takes, then, is a willingness to commit and to believe, and, if you don't believe, do it anyway.
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Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View PostSorry to have to point out but the kind of "open user and developer community" you want for hardware is a pipe dream until such time as chip fabrication technology becomes accessible to consumers in their own homes, and thus you can actually have a developer community as opposed to just large corporations who can pay fabrication plants millions in order to produce chips.
FPGA boards also represent an immediately accessable option, as lkcl pointed out.Last edited by bridgman; 16 February 2020, 01:11 AM.Test signature
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Originally posted by bridgman View Post
Not sure I agree here... there are a lot of options available today that don't require chip fab factories at home. Multi-project wafer programs like MOSIS have been around for 30+ years, although their focus is more on university class projects than on individual hobbyists. Minimum orders are in the thousands of dollars rather than millions even today though.
Originally posted by bridgman View PostFPGA boards also represent an immediately accessable option, as lkcl pointed out.
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Originally posted by bridgman View Postfocus is more on university class projects than on individual hobbyists. Minimum orders are in the thousands of dollars rather than millions even today though.
FPGA boards also represent an immediately accessable option, as lkcl pointed out.
no mask charges (or, they are amortised, like in shuttle services) and that's nanometre geometries.
the project is going extremely well. there was a talk about it by someone who used to work for Esperanto, i apologise i forget his name.
their idea is to FULLY automate the entirety of chip development, entirely as libre licensed tools.
with a USD 150 million budget they are getting an awful lot of traction.
in the meantime thanks to that anonymous sponsor we have access to two 180nm tapeouts at a cost of only USD 600 per sq mm, one will go on a test Cell Library ASIC in March, the other in October we are scrambling to get a single core basic chip done *and* P&Routed by then.
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I'd say moaning anything about "EULA" is very bad start if someone is anyhow serous about being open and libre. "EULA" doesn't sounds "opensource friendly" at all and usually implies quite unpleasant treatment. As for RISC-V vs microcontrollers... there're already some! Chinese GigaDevices company did a rather funny trick, they basically replaced ARM cortex M core with RISC-V core, while more or less retaining STM32-like peripherals. A very funny combo any day - and whatever but it makes reasonable MCU, capable of nearly anything ARM version has been capable of. Of course it boasts RISC-V "compressed" instruction set similar to thumb2, etc. So it seems ARM soon would have far harder times. And all these "us vs china" trade wars would definitely speed this up.
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Originally posted by lkcl View PostRISCV is very popular in proprietary systems where the augmentations, firmware, modified toolchains etc never see the light of day. Western Digital, Trinamic, NVIDIA, they are all using RISCV... *internally*...
Originally posted by lkclOn a *long term* basis, we can see that the RISC-V Foundation is just yet another example of "Fake Oern Source", where by contrast because IBM takes this very seriously, they are willing, with Hugh's help, to take the time to get it right.
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Originally posted by SavageX View Post
RISC-V indeed seems to be a popular choice right now for deeply embedded systems, which means those are usually not user-programmable. There are open and closed RISC-V implementations - and I expect the same to be true for OpenPOWER.
It's always nice to see open implementations. Sadly, for the project you kindly referred to, I don't see resource stats (e.g., FPGA utilization, which gives a rough hint at implementation complexity).
However, whether OpenPOWER is suitable for microcontrollers IMO depends on how the ISA will be split into "must implement" and "optional" parts. Is a FPU mandatory? Is a vector unit mandatory? A MMU? Depending on what is needed to be compliant, microcontrollers might be within reach - or not. POWER is not exactly "slim" if implemented to full spec.
While your problems with the RISC-V Foundation are well-documented (it appears to be non-trivial to propose new extensions that weren't already on the Foundation's agenda),
some day i will publish the full message patterson sent me. or perhaps i will be required to do so as part of an EU anti-trust investigation.
yes, you're right: getting extensions into RISC-V is not just non-trivial, it's absolute hell. MIT had to fight tooth and nail for six months just to get a three-paragraph chapter on "TSO" into the spec. the person i spoke to gave me the impression that it was deeply and disturbingly unpleasant.
and that's a "respected university".
in general the RISC-V Foundation seems to develop, ratify and publish specifications that can be implemented without undue restrictions.
Trademark Law is *specifically* designed - very very clearly - to make the penalties for this kind of unacceptable behaviour very harsh. the problem comes in that even *beginning* to pursue a Trademark Invalidation lawsuit is a waste of funds, and becomes a "Pyrrhic victory" regardless.
i.e. if we quotes win quotes a Trademark invalidation lawsuit against the RISC-V Foundation, it destroys the entire *purpose* of the Trademark.
this is why i had a quiet word with someone from the EU Commission, at FOSDEM, because they're better equipped to take the RISC-V Foundation - and its members - to task, over the fact that they're running into anti-trust laws.
people don't believe me, they think it's a joke that i call the RISC-V Foundation a cartel: it most definitely is not a joke. the person i spoke to took it very seriously when i pointed out that we'd been excluded from "innovation" due to the unique combination of "Libre", "transparency" and "business objectives".
I'm eagerly awaiting OpenPOWER to first get to the same state of "getting things done" and eventually surpass it. Until then the jury is still out.
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IMO depends on how the ISA will be split into "must implement" and "optional" parts
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