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Systemd 236 Is Being Prepped For Release This Month With Many Changes

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  • #31
    Originally posted by InsideJob View Post
    I still think the kernel needs a "feature" than just makes systemd no longer work.
    your bsd kernel had that feature from beginning


    • #32
      Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
      Poettering and other redhat idots do not realise that some embedded devices can use old 3.18 android based kernels
      I'm sorry, but if you've got locked on ancient kernel, it's hardly RH fault. RH could be blamed for many things, but surely not this one. Whatever, ancient vendor kernel suxx. Linux is only fun when it happens to be mainline.

      Then, neither sysv init nor openrc, etc would take care of truckload of system-level challenges like systemd does. Do it yourself, reinventing your fucking squared wheel 22nd time in a row. Then, alsa. C'mon, its API is awful and leaves a lot to be desired. Jack is inclined on professional use cases. Hopefully it explains why so many apps are using pulseaudio to play some sounds here and there.
      Last edited by SystemCrasher; 12-01-2017, 10:50 PM.


      • #33
        Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
        Armlogic is a shit because their hardware decoding accelerator does not have an open driver, among other things like audio and some HDMI issues that had to be worked around.
        If I read the linux-meson matrix correctly, some boards like Odroid C1 don't even have SMP (multi-core) enabled yet unless you use kernel 4.15-rc1. Which kind of shows how shitty the support is. The board is already old as heck.


        • #34
          Originally posted by InsideJob View Post
          I still think the kernel needs a "feature" than just makes systemd no longer work.
          At this point you'll take your stand straight against mr. Torvalds himself, who would shout loud and clearly they do not break user mode stuff. Have fun challenging him and don't forget to post links if this happens. I'm just curious if you'll manage to earn some strong, colorful objections from mr. Torvalds.

          Nobody is forcing Poettering to use Linux, he can switch to BSD if he doesn't like it. What goes around comes around.
          Poettering seems to be okay with Linux, especially when it runs his own PID 1 thing. So if you do not like particular distro, feel free to change it or even switch to BSD or whatever you like. It is up to distro maintainers to choose what they would like to maintain. Maintaining just some small text file instead of fairly big and troublesome init scripts seems to be appealing idea. Not to mention systemd allows to use busload of system-level features easily. Not something one could easily do with shell scripts, due to fragile and complicated nature of system-level calls and fact most of them require elevated rights. So merely putting service into container while switching user and andjusting priority could prove to be quite a challenge if performed from shell scripts.


          • #35
            Originally posted by debianxfce View Post
            Poettering and other redhat idots do not realise that some embedded devices can use old 3.18 android based kernels only if you want all the hw bells and whistles working. Making systemd bug reports is useless. You can run Debian testing without systemd running luckily. I am jealous to distributions that use sysv or openrc.
            init=/lib/sysvinit/init in the kernel command line to prevent systemd to work.

            And that's exactly the kind of crap you have to deal with when using hardware without open source drivers. Try weird workarounds, and all sorts of antics because the drivers you want will only work with kernel X.YZ and you have no way to make them work with newer versions of Linux kernel and userspace software. This is why attempting to build an "open" phone/tablet using the current common hardware (Snapdragon SoC, Exynos etc.) is a huge waste of time - seriously people, just use a system with Intel GPU.

            Seriously Canonical - you could've atleast launched Ubuntu tablet using Intel GPU which would've saved you a huge amount of time and pain, allowed you to use pretty much same software stack as desktop distro, and use a really solid stable open source GPU driver with all the bells and whistles. Or even an AMD GPU (which are way more powerful than the Intel GPUs).

            And the KDE tablet - using an Intel GPU would've been so much better instead of actually believing you would get non-existent open source drivers for hardware.

            Intel already walked the talk and continue to do so. If anyone who's planning to launch tablets/phones with open source software is listening, please please please use an Intel GPU so that we can actually have an open and functional system - yes I get that it's not going to be perfect (Skylake+ GPU requires closed source firmware, Intel ME and all that) but atleast the operating system and other parts will actually be open source. Open source firmware and open hardware are useless if you have to run closed source drivers to actually use the hardware.


            • #36
              Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
              Yeah, it's yet another case of an old program doing dodgy things that gets blocked by systemd.

              How bad are systemd devs for asking downstream to fix their unsafe shit. waah waah waah.
              They are not asking anybody, they are breaking shit. I would be much more inclined to accept this if they added functionality to journald that spews "XYZ is deprecated and will break in future version of systemd" for 5 versions before they actually break anything. Breaking userspace left and right and telling users to go fuck themselves if something breaks _shouldn't_ be acceptable approach. Fortunately most of this crap gets caught by distro package maintainers long before it hits users.
              Unless you are running software in your business that you bought 5 years ago, don't have source codes level access to and to prevent this you just never update your system(d). #neverhappened


              • #37
                Originally posted by debianxfce View Post

                I wonder what kinder garden education red hat developers have. When I was in the university decades ago they did teach to reuse software and not re-inveting the wheel. That is just opposite what redhat does: wayland (use X), pulseaudio (use alsa, gstreamer and jackd) , systemd (use sysv or openrc), networkmanager (use wicd) ,gnome3 ( use Xfce, advanced gnome3 users are tweaking gnome3 desktop to look like Xfce)...
                They use Fedora as staging ground for new stuff until it's stable enough to get into RHEL. They pay *hundreds* of full-time developers who are assigned few software packages each to fix things as they break and work with upstream (or in fact become upstream developers) on any issues that their users have.
                They guarantee compatibility within scope of each RHEL release which is basically a LTS release by design (and they still have bunch of developers who provide paid support as necessary). This is pretty far from what any "volunteer-ran" distro does or have resources to do.
                Last edited by tpruzina; 12-05-2017, 12:01 PM.


                • #38
                  Originally posted by pal666 View Post
                  but the fact that you did not make anything worthwhile does mean that nobody is going to take your criticism seriously
                  Oh yes, the good old "If you haven't made anything better yourself you're not allowed to point out the flaws in something"-line... Only problem is that it's well known to be completely bullshit and mostly used to try to deflect legitimate criticisms.

                  Originally posted by bachchain View Post
                  Because it always happens.
                  Maybe that's because there's just so much to criticize about in systemd and so little is done to address these criticisms?

                  Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                  The fact that the overwhelming majority of distro maintainers (i.e. people that actually know stuff and do the leg work) did adopt both "botched implementations" pretty fast should be always kept in mind when posting your own critique if you want to sound believable.
                  When there aren't any alternatives adoption of something is hardly proof of something being any good. Hell, even when you have alternatives being popular is hardly proof of being any good, just look at chart music.

                  Originally posted by kaprikawn View Post
                  It's easy to know how systemd threads are going to go, they're as predictable as ones on Outreachy.

                  Hey, at least my post wasn't 'Grabs popcorn....'
                  So it's bad that people continue to criticize something with a lot of legitimate criticisms and no will to address these criticisms? I take it you think people should stop criticizing Trump whenever he says something stupid and/or false?
                  Last edited by L_A_G; 12-04-2017, 06:41 AM.
                  "Why should I want to make anything up? Life's bad enough as it is without wanting to invent any more of it."


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
                    Oh yes, the good old "If you haven't made anything better yourself you're not allowed to point out the flaws in something"-line...
                    no, the good old "if you are clueless, nobody is interested in your noise"


                    • #40

                      Second post of the topic was posted by a guy being hit by bug.
                      Third post already had a guy 'defending systemd' (proactive defence?) although no real criticism had yet been posted.
                      After some posts with more pointed-out criticism, responses ranged from well-known demagogic attempts at discrediting the opponent to deeply personal insults.

                      At this point it appears to be a matter of religion. If 'Poettering is your God and systemd his Prophet, peace be upon it' - fucking use it, masturbate while watching it running, sacrifice goats to it or whatever else.. but don't act like religious nutcases from Middle-East, A.D 925.

                      Because it's the way most hardcore defenders here appear to behave. It's childish and also rather makes you look like loonies.
                      Last edited by aht0; 12-07-2017, 07:02 AM.