Clear Linux Switches From Xfce To GNOME, Benchmarks

[leipero]

starshipeleven In few posts erlier I proved that polls could give you result you wanted..., and as I said, using misleading data is much worse than using no data at all. But as Mark Twain said, "Lies, damned lies, and statistics", so i will leave it at that since I do share that viewpoint.

Well, that is your subjective view of DE, but you are refering to layout, including layout of applications, personally i fail to see significant difference between those and GNOME, the only semi-significant difference is CSD layout of applications, and that is exact reason why I actually use GNOME and not other DE's. Large icons are part of KDE also (at least in file manager), same as in GNOME file manager, the only difference is "fullscreen" application layout, and I personally rarely even use that, just when searching for applications, it's much easier, press "super" key, start typing, press enter, but that same thing can be achieved by classical start menu on other DE's.

Well, from what i saw "plasmoids" are mainly widgets, very limited, I don't know if that is limitation of structure of KDE, but it is nothing comparable to GNOME extensions, are there extensions that would completely change layout of DE? Or something similar to "Coverflow Alt-Tab"? If I'm wrong, then fine, if not, it would be quite a bit of strech to put Cinnamon widgets, KDE "plasmoids" and MATE plugins in the same category to GNOME 3 extensions.

[starshipeleven]

That is nothing but assumptions on your side.

Yeah sure, Win8's interface flaming and lack of sales was all assumptions on my side, Cinnamon and MATE were also created by assumptions on my side, even Ubuntu's Unity's interface flaming was all assumptions on my side.

Neither of that really happened and isn't proof that maybe, and I say MAYBE, there is people that find touch interface paradigms retarded on a desktop system where you don't have a touch screen.

Meanwhile, none flames Android or iOS for their touch-oriented interface. WHY OH ZOD WHY.

Till you bring hard evidence trough relevant user studies showing that GNOMES HIG and GUI causing troubles to several different people (including those not having trouble adapting to new and efficient mental models) in comparison to the ones you mentioned you are doing no better then Griffing here.

Yeah right, you also want me to give you money?
The above is the best I can do for free, I hope you can understand.

Not everyone wants to be stuck on the win95 and pre methaphers.

I would love some fresh air too, but placing touch UIs where they don't belong and hiding all options behind an arcane windows-registry-like system is not an improvement. Sorry, maybe I have too fine tastes, but I still think that taking something that works well in a field and shovel it in another is not innovation, nor gives good results.

Besides, a DE doesn't exist in a vacuum. Most Linux (or even WIndows) applications are still designed with the old desktop metaphor and won't change so easily, so either your DE is able to handle them in the most productive way (i.e. same as they were designed to be used) or it ends getting in my way, and I don't like that.

I still prefer a productive win95 metaphor desktop to a desktop that looks cool but can't fucking multiwindow properly, and I don't see why I should change my own habits to suit a DE's stylistic choices that have adverse or no impact on productivity.

[starshipeleven]

That is nothing but assumptions on your side.

Yeah sure, Win8's interface flaming and lack of sales was all assumptions on my side, Cinnamon and MATE were also created by assumptions on my side, even Ubuntu's Unity's interface flaming was all assumptions on my side.

Neither of that really happened and isn't proof that maybe, and I say MAYBE, there is people that find touch interface paradigms retarded on a desktop system where you don't have a touch screen.

Meanwhile, none flames Android or iOS for their touch-oriented interface. WHY OH ZOD WHY.

Till you bring hard evidence trough relevant user studies showing that GNOMES HIG and GUI causing troubles to several different people (including those not having trouble adapting to new and efficient mental models) in comparison to the ones you mentioned you are doing no better then Griffing here.

Yeah right, you also want me to give you money?
The above is the best I can do for free, I hope you can understand.

Not everyone wants to be stuck on the win95 and pre methaphers.

I would love some fresh air too, but placing touch UIs where they don't belong and hiding all options behind an arcane windows-registry-like system is not an improvement. Sorry, maybe I have too fine tastes, but I still think that taking something that works well in a field and shovel it in another is not innovation, nor gives good results.

Besides, a DE doesn't exist in a vacuum. Most Linux (or even WIndows) applications are still designed with the old desktop metaphor and won't change so easily, so either your DE is able to handle them in the most productive way (i.e. same as they were designed to be used) or it ends getting in my way, and I don't like that.

I still prefer a productive win95 metaphor desktop to a desktop that looks cool but can't fucking multiwindow properly, and I don't see why I should change my own habits to suit a DE's stylistic choices that have adverse or no impact on productivity.

[starshipeleven]

starshipeleven In few posts erlier I proved that polls could give you result you wanted..., and as I said, using misleading data is much worse than using no data at all. But as Mark Twain said, "Lies, damned lies, and statistics", so i will leave it at that since I do share that viewpoint.

If you aggregate data from different sources you still get more close to the truth than just speculating, because all errors in data gathering will even out or stick out.

This is basic scientific method, the fact that malicious people select their sources to show the results they want does not make it invalid if used properly.

Well, that is your subjective view of DE, but you are refering to layout, including layout of applications, personally i fail to see significant difference between those and GNOME

Yeah, the fact that start menu in GNOME is a bigass full-screen app drawer, that the areas where you are supposed to click to trigger some action are very large for a desktop (because touch UI) and that its Files lacks many menus and options found in others is very subjective.

Well, from what i saw "plasmoids" are mainly widgets, very limited, I don't know if that is limitation of structure of KDE, but it is nothing comparable to GNOME extensions, are there extensions that would completely change layout of DE?

sorry I derped. I should have linked the store here, KDE has an extension system, but most things are just options or have multiple effects you can choose from so there are probably less extreme extensions than on GNOME https://store.kde.org/browse/ord/latest/
Cinnamon has smilar system (being a GNOME 3 fork) https://cinnamon-spices.linuxmint.com/ but I can't vouch on how good that is as I don't use it.

XFCE and MATE have less-polished extension system with far less stuff, but can still be customized to a good extent if you disregard high-end effects. For example XFCE's file manager has Custom Actions which are quite nifty (and something I sometimes miss on Dolphin) http://duncanlock.net/blog/2013/06/2...ustom-actions/

Or something similar to "Coverflow Alt-Tab"?

KDE has multiple effects for alt-tab function by default. Configure Desktop > Window Behaviour > Task Switcher
And then in Visualization part you have a menu with like 10 different effects, the "coverflow" effect is called "cover switch". You can install more from the store, https://store.kde.org/browse/cat/211/order/latest

hell, in KDE you can even install more pages/tabs for System Monitor.

[leipero]

starshipeleven
If you aggregate data, but we have only one source, even worse Arch source that consist of more advanced users, it cannot represent actual usage in any way, on polls, well..., we came to the conclusion about polls earlier. Statistics do not actually go under category of scientific method, logical thesis and evidence do, for example, if you used compulsory "declaration" of computer users, what DE they use etc., and you have verification method, it could fall under category of it, but still, ingoring possibility of change over time, but you already know that. Statistics, no matter what, can be "massaged" to the way those doing it want it to be..., is the same as claiming "most people do not X" without any evidence to support it, so argument goes both ways...

Well, as i said, the only difference is CSD and fullscreen, that's why I try toa void your method of discussion, by qoting separate things out of context, it's always better to read whole post first, in context, than to reply to specific lines in someone's sentences.

Neverminf, I've searched and saw the store actually, from what I'm getting, it is flexible, but categorized, not as flexible as Gnome-Shell extensions, but that is due to the overcomplication of KDE DE in general, I've used Cinnamon for quite a while, most of those addons are applets/widgets and stuff (similar to KDE), and to be honest, I did tried a few, never really used it, no need for it.

The whole point of GNOME 3, in my view makes a lot of sense, you ahve basic important options integrated in DE, while other less relevant things, such as customization etc. are moved to separate application (tweak tool) that usually comes with GNOME 3 DE. The only problem i find with it, I think that fonts settings (at least size) should be moved from tweak tool to control center, and extensions should be managed internaly (search/install from the tweak tool etc.), and I'm sure 2nd one will be done soon, while for fornts there's good argument against it, but i disagree.

To the contrary of GNOME, Cinnamon, MATE (XFCE to the extent) and especially KDE, keep those customization options as integral part of DE, and that is a problem in a long-run, and bad design in my opinion. Also, as I argued before, KDE (and even MATE) have tons of useless customization settings, while more important privacy options are not avilable, in MATE for example, in mate panel default (application, system, places) menu, recent files are listed, and there was no option in any settings to disable that, I had to resort to deleting "recently-used.xbel" file, creating folder with the same name and some otehr things in order to fix that problem, in KDE i didn't even managed to disable recently used applications/files in start menu, that is very bad, since that option is far more important than any customization option, for me at least, and for most people, and for privacy in general.

I mean, GNU is generally customizable, and you can do (if you know) anything you want, but i found it hard to believe that lack of privacy options is "accident", and i refuse to use such systems.

[ldo17]

That to assemble a complex multi-argument command like for example those used by [random GUI tool] I need to read the manual and that may take a long while if the manual is long, while if I use [random GUI tool]'s UI I do what I needed to do in like 2 minutes and I'm off doing something more productive than re-learning how to interact with a dumb machine.

Until you find yourself doing that task repeatedly, and you have to go through the same sequence of keystrokes and mouse clicks every time.

That’s the time you wish you could get the computer to do the task, instead of having the computer get you to do the task.

[sirblackheart]

Starship and danielnez1. Please confirm how KDE does easy customizations like Gnome's GTK inspector.

Customization?

There seems to be a GUI Debugger equivalent to GtkInspector for Qt: https://github.com/robertknight/Qt-Inspector

[starshipeleven]

Until you find yourself doing that task repeatedly, and you have to go through the same sequence of keystrokes and mouse clicks every time.

That’s the time you wish you could get the computer to do the task, instead of having the computer get you to do the task.

Decent GUI programs like handbrake (or also clonezilla for that matter) allow you to save presets, so the same job can be launched in a couple clicks.

But this is not always possible as in many cases you need complex interaction with multiple programs, which is why I say (like the author of that blog) that the best is having both GUI and command line interface.

But CLI is mostly useful as "script interface", basically a poor man's programming API, not as main human-machine interface.

[sirblackheart]

per-app customization.

Is GtkInspector even intended for that? Do any modification stay saved at restart of the system?
Don't get me wrong I just recently used GtkInspector and it is a great tool do debug Gtk but I did not even know it is intended to be used as application customization tool till you brought it up.

[danielnez1]

How is using gnome 2 not a working rollback for you?

Should we really start to compare tools with medicine?

In the old days of GNOME 3, people could still use the Fallback session, however once that was removed and before GNOME classic came on the scene, if a system was upgraded, without removing their old profile, GNOME would simply crash with the infamous and useless "Oh no something has went wrong".

Comparing tools to medicine is an analogy, just like what the Desktop metaphor is supposed to be...

As to Horton/Griffin's latest rabble about the GTK inspector, to they seriously think end users should use such a tool to make basic changes to the UI? That's not very "user friendly" or something you'd expect to use in a "professionally developed" desktop now is it?