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“Science Gets A Lot Of Things Wrong”

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  • #11
    As an atheist I find religious people frankly weird. Following loop of "logic" is characteristic to religious folk.

    But how do we know that God loves us?
    Because the Scriptures tell us so!

    But how do we know Scriptures are right?
    Because they were inspired by God!

    But how do we know they were inspired by God?
    Because it says so, right in the Scriptures!
    So, it all comes down to what? To the blind faith that Written Word is Truth. Faith so utterly strong that everything contradictory is simply being ignored (Creationists for example). It never ceases to amaze me.

    I am just glad that most Christians these days are following the New Testament, not the Old Testament. Or we would have nutcases running around magnitude worse than beheading islamics in the Middle East

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    • #12
      Originally posted by duby229 View Post
      Basically every person studying classical literature knew the world was round.
      Eratosthenes, Chief Librarian at Alexandria around the 3rd century BC, worked out the size of the Earth to within a few percent of its modern value. (A quick search indicates the error was either 2% or 16%, depending on the definition of the unit he was using, which is unclear.)

      The last Chief Librarian of Alexandria, Hypatia, met a grisly death at the hands of a Christian mob in the 5th century AD. Many institutions of classical learning were suppressed by the Christians because of their “pagan” roots.

      In the 7th century, the Arabs conquered Egypt. The general who took Alexandria asked Caliph Omar what to do with the remnants of the Library. He was told: “Touching the books you mentioned, if what is written in them agrees with the Book of God, they are not required; if it disagrees, they are not desired. Destroy them therefore.”

      In the 11th century, the Persian astronomer, Al-Biruni, worked out the size of the Earth to within 1% of its modern value. This was during the Islamic Golden Age, when Europe was still in the Dark Ages.

      What I find is, there was no such thing as “religious fanaticism” during Classical times. So what if different people worshipped different gods? It just meant you went to a different temple and performed different rites. It was the monotheists who introduced the idea “my god is the only true god, all other gods are false”. The roots of religious intolerance can be traced to this one idea: get rid of it, and I think we will all stand a better chance of living together in peace.

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      • #13
        Originally posted by ldo17 View Post

        Eratosthenes, Chief Librarian at Alexandria around the 3rd century BC, worked out the size of the Earth to within a few percent of its modern value. (A quick search indicates the error was either 2% or 16%, depending on the definition of the unit he was using, which is unclear.)

        The last Chief Librarian of Alexandria, Hypatia, met a grisly death at the hands of a Christian mob in the 5th century AD. Many institutions of classical learning were suppressed by the Christians because of their “pagan” roots.

        In the 7th century, the Arabs conquered Egypt. The general who took Alexandria asked Caliph Omar what to do with the remnants of the Library. He was told: “Touching the books you mentioned, if what is written in them agrees with the Book of God, they are not required; if it disagrees, they are not desired. Destroy them therefore.”

        In the 11th century, the Persian astronomer, Al-Biruni, worked out the size of the Earth to within 1% of its modern value. This was during the Islamic Golden Age, when Europe was still in the Dark Ages.

        What I find is, there was no such thing as “religious fanaticism” during Classical times. So what if different people worshipped different gods? It just meant you went to a different temple and performed different rites. It was the monotheists who introduced the idea “my god is the only true god, all other gods are false”. The roots of religious intolerance can be traced to this one idea: get rid of it, and I think we will all stand a better chance of living together in peace.
        Unfortunately that would require the genocide of all jews, christians, muslims, and buddists of this world. It's easier to ask forgiveness than permission, so therefore it's better to forgive and forget. Really. It's not defeatist it's reality.

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        • #14
          Originally posted by duby229 View Post

          Unfortunately that would require the genocide of all jews, christians, muslims, and buddists of this world.
          No it wouldn’t—it would just require persuading them to amend their beliefs, as they have done so before when circumstances forced them to. Because the alternative—sticking to their present course—has already meant genocide, several times throughout history.

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          • #15
            Somebody who has grown up with core beliefs, is next to impossible to persuade. You simply can't shake the fundamentals learned from parents (whom words child trusts the most). It's even more hopeless with converts who usually become magnitude bigger zealots than everyone else (plenty of islamic terrorists have "found Allah at some point in their life")

            Soviets did deal with it efficiently,they suppressed every sort of religion rather ruthlessly (shot most of the priests/mullahs and deported a bunch to the Siberia) but they fucked up by replacing it with their own brand of ideology.

            What the global world needs today, is a total ban and stark punishments on all religious propaganda, expression of one's religious views, public demands motivated by religion and so forth.

            Religion (at least the aggressive ones dictating not only you how you (got no issue with former) but EVERYBODY ELSE should live) have been the ultimate source of human misery and killed more people throughout the history than anything else.


            Yeah, be confessor in private if you like, but be fucking quiet about it. You and your relationship with a God should be your private thing, something along the lines you usually keep your intimate life.

            You have expressed a view that raping some women is something your God would approve? Castration should be the result. You actually have raped someone? Just die. Life for a life. You already ruined somebody else's. What right do you think you have for living afterwards?

            Plots to kill someone because religion? Actually did? Instead of prison they all should go get their 9 grams of lead and organs donated to medicine.

            Locations of Earth where terrorist camps are training out new meat? Like Bekaa valley? Nuke the fuckers, salt the land and be done with it. Peace in the style of mongols.

            Agressive religions are a cancer in the body of human society. Applies in my mind for both Christians and Islamics.

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            • #16
              Originally posted by Ido17 View Post
              It was the monotheists who introduced the idea “my god is the only true god, all other gods are false”. The roots of religious intolerance can be traced to this one idea: get rid of it, and I think we will all stand a better chance of living together in peace.
              You can also add religious intolerance within the religion itself. Schisms were commonplace. Arianism and it's opponents came up even before Roman Empire collapsed. They did not like each-other much more than protestants-catholics did thousand years later.

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              • #17
                Originally posted by ldo17 View Post

                Eratosthenes, Chief Librarian at Alexandria around the 3rd century BC, worked out the size of the Earth to within a few percent of its modern value. (A quick search indicates the error was either 2% or 16%, depending on the definition of the unit he was using, which is unclear.)

                The last Chief Librarian of Alexandria, Hypatia, met a grisly death at the hands of a Christian mob in the 5th century AD. Many institutions of classical learning were suppressed by the Christians because of their “pagan” roots.

                In the 7th century, the Arabs conquered Egypt. The general who took Alexandria asked Caliph Omar what to do with the remnants of the Library. He was told: “Touching the books you mentioned, if what is written in them agrees with the Book of God, they are not required; if it disagrees, they are not desired. Destroy them therefore.”

                In the 11th century, the Persian astronomer, Al-Biruni, worked out the size of the Earth to within 1% of its modern value. This was during the Islamic Golden Age, when Europe was still in the Dark Ages.

                What I find is, there was no such thing as “religious fanaticism” during Classical times. So what if different people worshipped different gods? It just meant you went to a different temple and performed different rites. It was the monotheists who introduced the idea “my god is the only true god, all other gods are false”. The roots of religious intolerance can be traced to this one idea: get rid of it, and I think we will all stand a better chance of living together in peace.
                I was just reminded of something and I wanted ask have you ever heard about Zoroastrianism? The Persians definitely were not tolerant of other religions and they directly conflicted with classical Greeks and more. Intolerance is not new for sure.

                Comment


                • #18
                  Originally posted by duby229 View Post

                  I was just reminded of something and I wanted ask have you ever heard about Zoroastrianism? The Persians definitely were not tolerant of other religions and they directly conflicted with classical Greeks and more. Intolerance is not new for sure.
                  I did a quick look, and it appears Zorostrianism was a monotheistic religion. And if they were intolerant of others, well, that too fits in with the general behaviour of monotheists. The two crucial (mis)features of monotheism are:
                  1. “My god is the only true god, all other gods are false”, and
                  2. “My god defines what morality is”.

                  These are the two major obstacles to religious tolerance in the world today. They both have to go, if we are to have any peace.

                  Comment


                  • #19
                    Originally posted by ldo17 View Post

                    I did a quick look, and it appears Zorostrianism was a monotheistic religion. And if they were intolerant of others, well, that too fits in with the general behaviour of monotheists. The two crucial (mis)features of monotheism are:
                    1. “My god is the only true god, all other gods are false”, and
                    2. “My god defines what morality is”.




                    These are the two major obstacles to religious tolerance in the world today. They both have to go, if we are to have any peace.
                    Ah hah! Thanks for looking. Zoroastrianism was not explicitly monotheistic. There was a good god Ahura Mazda, and evil god Angra Mainyu kind of like a duality. But as it turned out many people just didn't want to worship an evil god and so the good god essentially became the most worshipped god. And the fact is Zoroastrians lived in Caanan during the time when Judaism was being invented. In all likelihood the Jewish god actually is Ahura Mazda.

                    EDIT: I wonder what Muslims and Christians would think if it turned out Abraham was actually a Zoroastrian.
                    Last edited by duby229; 20 March 2017, 10:40 PM.

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                    • #20
                      Originally posted by ldo17 View Post
                      “My god is the only true god, all other gods are false”, and
                      1. “My god defines what morality is”.



                      These are the two major obstacles to religious tolerance in the world today. They both have to go, if we are to have any peace.
                      (y) +1

                      The latter point is especially annoying. I could live with the first one, not caring about if somebody dislikes my God or my lack of one.

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