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[starshipeleven]

At the time, they were reaching out to the USSR -which was blazing through them on the continent, and would've been on their shores in short order- to annex them to the great and glorious USSR.

fixed.

Really, I'm not saying the US acted out of good heart (they didn't). I just stated the fact that if they didn't it would have been much worse.

Americans had little concern for Japanese lives

*cough*concentration camps for asian/japanese-looking US citizens*cough*

[1Samildanach]

fixed.

I didn't mean to imply Stalin had philanthropic intent; I was just trying to point out that there was proto-Cold War crud going on, and there's a fair chance that was the primary motivation (the alternative, from that perspective, being a race-for-Berlin type situation, which would have had a splash of Vietnam mixed in [not that they woulda made that analogy in 1945 :P]).

*cough*concentration camps for asian/japanese-looking US citizens*cough*

To be fair, they were concentration camps in the sense that they kept a population in a specific (and controlled) place. There wasn't the extermination or forced labour we now associate with the term "concentration camp".

Still a dick move, but not an evil one.

[starshipeleven]

To be fair, they were concentration camps in the sense that they kept a population in a specific (and controlled) place. There wasn't the extermination or forced labour we now associate with the term "concentration camp".

Still a dick move, but not an evil one.

They were forced to live in shitty conditions like average for concentration camps, sure they weren't getting exterminated but the fact worth pointing out was that US did concentration camps on their own citizens for no real good reason apart "they have japanese ancestry", so go figure how many fucks they gave about japanese people abroad.

[aht0]

They were forced to live in shitty conditions like average for concentration camps, sure they weren't getting exterminated but the fact worth pointing out was that US did concentration camps on their own citizens for no real good reason apart "they have japanese ancestry", so go figure how many fucks they gave about japanese people abroad.

Hell of a lot better fate than being executed immediately or carted away on Siberia. Mind you, populations of the countries Soviets annexed were immediately dubbed as "Soviet citizens" and judged by Soviet laws which had pretty much 2 different punishments for "suspicious elements". "25+5" or execution. 25+5 meaning deportation into Siberia's GULAG camps for appropriate amount of years. Most died there.

I did not check this thread for some time but I still can't believe it appears to be the most popular topic in the whole effin' forum..

[nomadewolf]

These were mostly a strong message to Japan.
Japanese were clearly losing, but were also stubborn as fuck, and needed something very powerful to change their minds and stop wasting everyone's (and their own) men and resources.

Japan knew they couldn't win the war when they started it. Their objective was to prolong it for as long as possible in order to be able to negotiate. They started it because Murrica stopped selling Oil and Iron Ore to them. Without that Japan couldn't continue it's war on China. So the plan was to 'stall' Murica so that Russia wouldn't join the war against Germany. (Russia have had their asses handed to them by Japan a few years earlier)

Murica bombed Japan because they were in a hurry. Still doesn't justify it...

I'm saying "strong message" as the USA always had blatant air superiority, and by the end of the war it was even more one-sided.
Japan planes were shitty in general, US atomic bombers could simply stay so far up in the atmosphere to be simply out of reach.
Their atomic bombers could have dropped nukes wherever, but they didn't target large cities like for example Tokio.

Japanese 'Zero' fighters were vastly superior in the beginning of the war. But since they hadn't the resources to build new ones and their superiority relied in the speed gained from lack of protection... Alsothe introduction of formations impacted their superiority.

If they actually targeted serous cities the death toll would have been various orders of magnitude worse than the estimated 150-250k people for Hiroshima/Nagasaki combined, and most people wouldn't even have died of direct effects of the nuke, but due to collapse of the Japanese nation.

So winning the war gives them the right to exterminate races? And they are not that bad, because they don't?

Really, the bigger issues for nuke bombers were jet streams (high-speed winds in the high atmosphere) that were pushing them off course. Nagasaki was chosen because the bomber went ridiculously off-course due to unforseen jet streams pushing it too far from its intended target.

Fun fact: they did firebomb hard Tokio though (to destroy industries mostly), doing more than 100k causalities (probably around the same of both atomic bombs combined).

Still very bad, but at least they were aiming for the factories. Japan should have their factories away from densely populated areas.

[aht0]

These were mostly a strong message to Japan.
Japanese were clearly losing, but were also stubborn as fuck, and needed something very powerful to change their minds and stop wasting everyone's (and their own) men and resources.

cultural upbringing, loyalty and duty to Emperor, knowing of being of superior race, sort of twisted samurai beliefs (why so few became prisoner and rather fought to the death)

If they actually targeted serous cities the death toll would have been various orders of magnitude worse than the estimated 150-250k people for Hiroshima/Nagasaki combined, and most people wouldn't even have died of direct effects of the nuke, but due to collapse of the Japanese nation.

Really, the bigger issues for nuke bombers were jet streams (high-speed winds in the high atmosphere) that were pushing them off course. Nagasaki was chosen because the bomber went ridiculously off-course due to unforseen jet streams pushing it too far from its intended target.

Fun fact: they did firebomb hard Tokio though (to destroy industries mostly), doing more than 100k causalities (probably around the same of both atomic bombs combined).

And after reading about Nanking massacre and row of other Japanese-conducted massacres in China and elsewhere, can't really feel the nukes and firebombing not being justified either. More inhuman the enemy, more inhuman methods it's adversary must use to "get through".

Present day Japanese are pretty friendly, courteous and decent folk. I doubt they would be the even close to being such if they did not have to go through losing the war. Same applies to Germans.

[dimko]

Sorry, but you make no sense.
I also said:


How can i say that murica fought battles, but had nothing to do with it?
They also used napalm, rockets, choppas, planes, grenades, destroyers, aircraft carriers and machineguns.

I hope i not 'deying' anything else... (rolls eyes)

All i meant to clarify was that NAM wasn't started by Murica. But i learned something at least. In my mind, the napalm had been the worst of it. (not deying Hiroshima and Nagasaki also...)

Sorry, didn't realize your 'Murrica' spelling. Who starts war has very little to do with who participates in it.
Just saying.

In Ukrain was was not started by Russians.
Same as in NAM.
Same as in Second World War.

[dimko]

In Ukrain was was not started by Russians.
Same as in NAM.
Same as in Second World War.

What i was trying to say - doesn't matter who starts war, what important is who participates in it.
Second world war started silly, but then it went around rest of world.

[stiiixy]

o

Oh, and the Americans had little concern for Japanese lives (I mean, calling 'em racist is really just a statement of fact). The value they placed on Soviet lives was pretty much solely dependant on the usefulness of said Soviets.

Well, the Japanese were of an Imperialistic mindset (which changed to their core with their defeat in WWII) which included a very bizarre notion of anyone who surrendered was sub-human. Kicking prisoners in the guts was considered an act of kindness. They were less than dogs. This treatment included their own people. Anyone who surrendered became demons to be worked to death if not immediately killed. It wasn't racism, as an outright disgust with gutless people. they became worse than ostracised, and even slaves, who were at least protected by their owners. This is why you will see almost unarmed and unprotected units of Japanese armies completly massacred. They did not want to be taken alive because the consequences and shame would be a blight on their name. When Western force's figured this out, they started taking their family swords and Sennanbari and whatnot to try shame them. If they weren't outright stabbed in revenge (the Japanese really did treat people very poorly and unnecessarily viscously) that is.