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Apple Designs New File-System To Succeed HFS+

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  • #51
    Originally posted by bug77 View Post

    Well, video cards and drivers change all the time. File systems and storage are usually set in stone for a decade or so.
    Even so, have you heard many OSX users complain about their crappy graphic stack? Why bother if the users can't make a difference anyway?
    Actually it is well known in the Mac community that Apples graphics drivers suck! For the majority of users it doesn't matter as they aren't gaming.

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    • #52
      Originally posted by k1e0x View Post

      ZFS actually has a permissive licence. Linux does not. That's why everything except Linux already has it. - An this is REALLY a problem. I highly doubt the GNU's goal was to create barriers for software the way it has. Open source won and now we are squabbling over technicalities that few lawyers even understand. I really think that weak copyleft is the right approach, strong copyleft does nothing but bite Linux in the ass and deny it from progressing.
      GPL is hard to even accept as an open source license, mainly because you aren't free to use the software as you please. Further as an author you lose some of your rights if you apply a GPL license to it or use GPL licensed code. I really hate to say this but I'm afraid that GPL was a good idea that went wrong based on the ideas of a few whacko's.

      As for Linux, it is no surprise that they have stuck with GPL 2. Going GPL 3 would have killed Linux in the corporate world. GPL 3 just takes to many rights away from both the users and the authors.

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      • #53
        Originally posted by wizard69 View Post

        Actually it is well known in the Mac community that Apples graphics drivers suck! For the majority of users it doesn't matter as they aren't gaming.
        Well known is one thing. Is the Mac community as vocal demanding proper drivers as the Linux community that doesn't loose a chance to crucify Nvidia for their closed source drivers or AMD for their lacking performance?

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        • #54
          smitty3268 pal666 starshipeleven Thaodan bug77

          One, we don't know how long they've been working on this project. Given that it's apple, it could've been in the works for years, with a team of hundreds working around the clock
          Two, F2FS might work except for that 16TB volume limitation. However, I'd imagine that'll get fixed before long.
          Three, how would working on a linux fs help osx? Yeah, they could port it, and they'd be less work than designing something from scratch, but that's still a pretty significant amount of work for something that isn't "done" yet.

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          • #55
            Originally posted by wizard69 View Post
            GPL is hard to even accept as an open source license, mainly because you aren't free to use the software as you please.
            Actually, it does enable you to use the software as you please and ensures that you continue to be able to do so. Developers are so fucking selfish, but in the end it's the users that matter and open code is and always will be in their best interests.

            Jeeze, your argument is like saying the Constitution infringes upon my rights to do whatever I want to people. Fuck the Constitution, I want to enslave others!!! Get real.
            Last edited by fuzz; 15 June 2016, 11:47 PM.

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            • #56
              Originally posted by wizard69 View Post

              Sure it is, it isn't open source "code" but it is open source "documentation". Besides that statement was very carefully worded we really don't know what will happen a year or two from now with the code. Given that if the documentation is good, a compatible Linux interface could be written.
              From a legal standpoint, "open documentation" doesn't equate to anything.
              There are plenty of products which are "openly documented" but that the creators will happily sue you for if you dare re-implement them.

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              • #57
                Originally posted by k1e0x View Post
                ZFS actually has a permissive licence. Linux does not. That's why everything except Linux already has it. - An this is REALLY a problem. I highly doubt the GNU's goal was to create barriers for software the way it has. Open source won and now we are squabbling over technicalities that few lawyers even understand. I really think that weak copyleft is the right approach, strong copyleft does nothing but bite Linux in the ass and deny it from progressing.
                Your definition of "everything" is weird.

                ZFS runs only on Unix.

                Linux has an unofficial port of ZFS, Windows has jackshit even if it would be legal to make a ZFS driver for windows.

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                • #58
                  Originally posted by liam View Post
                  One, we don't know how long they've been working on this project. Given that it's apple, it could've been in the works for years, with a team of hundreds working around the clock
                  Let's ignore for a moment that modern filesystems require substantial testing before being declared anywhere near stable, and you simply cannot do that in-house unless you have a few hundred million people in your basement.

                  That said, Apple isn't a charity, and making THE BEST FILESYSTEM EVAR isn't going to boost their sales by any amount, since they target the a userbase that does not kow shit about IT.
                  Rational approach is simply hack some new features in their current filesystem, or take soemthing off-the-shelf and expand on it like they did for everything.

                  A modern filesystem is not something you can develop from scratch in a pinch over a weekend in a garage, that large development cost has to be justified.

                  Two, F2FS might work except for that 16TB volume limitation. However, I'd imagine that'll get fixed before long.
                  The point was taking a project with similar goals that exists already and expanding on it. Currently, given the sizes of Apple storage, 16TB will be enough for a long while, plenty of time to fix that limitation.

                  Three, how would working on a linux fs help osx?
                  if they adopt it as their own the fs isn't "a linux fs" anymore, like say CUPS, it's mostly developed by Apple, but it is used by Linux too.

                  Yeah, they could port it, and they'd be less work than designing something from scratch, but that's still a pretty significant amount of work for something that isn't "done" yet.
                  I don't understand what you mean here, porting and expanding a bit something that is "not done yet" remains better than designing it from scratch. We aren't talking of re-implementing shit and simple fs like UDF or FAT.

                  Which is why "apple develops a new modern filesystem from scratch" is imho ruled out

                  That's why it's 99% likely they chose the easiest way, respinning their own HFS+ by adding some features around.

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                  • #59
                    Originally posted by liam View Post
                    smitty3268 pal666 starshipeleven Thaodan bug77

                    One, we don't know how long they've been working on this project. Given that it's apple, it could've been in the works for years, with a team of hundreds working around the clock
                    ...
                    I think it's unlikely they started work behind close door and at some point they decided to announce it even if it's not complete. It just doesn't make sense to change strategies. My money's on a project that just recently started.

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                    • #60
                      starshipeleven bug77

                      Originally posted by bug77 View Post

                      I think it's unlikely they started work behind close door and at some point they decided to announce it even if it's not complete. It just doesn't make sense to change strategies. My money's on a project that just recently started.
                      Hi bug77,

                      It also seems unlikely that they would announce a product that wasn't very close to completion.
                      Given that this is their first fs in...however long ago hfs got it's + ago, I think they are trying to hew close to their preferred announcement/release cadence while still providing themselves, and their customers, with a bit of protection via the development release status.


                      Originally posted by starshipeleven View Post
                      Originally posted by liam
                      One, we don't know how long they've been working on this project. Given that it's apple, it could've been in the works for years, with a team of hundreds working around the clock
                      Let's ignore for a moment that modern filesystems require substantial testing before being declared anywhere near stable, and you simply cannot do that in-house unless you have a few hundred million people in your basement.

                      That said, Apple isn't a charity, and making THE BEST FILESYSTEM EVAR isn't going to boost their sales by any amount, since they target the a userbase that does not kow shit about IT.
                      Rational approach is simply hack some new features in their current filesystem, or take soemthing off-the-shelf and expand on it like they did for everything.

                      A modern filesystem is not something you can develop from scratch in a pinch over a weekend in a garage, that large development cost has to be justified.
                      Hi starshipeleven,

                      I think your interpretation is based on a cost/benefit analysis, which is fine, but unless you are making the same judgments of those values (and the actual value of those values) as apple, you can't really replicate their reasoning.
                      They aren't focusing on the it crowd (though, from my experience, a very large percentage of developers/engineers use apple hardware/software---they may not be it, but they are a highly technical audience), but that doesn't matter. What apple cares about is customer satisfaction (perhaps indirectly, but that is the effect we see). They are aware of the limitations of hfs+ and have been looking to replace it for years. Do you recall the rumors, from a number of years ago, about apple adopting zfs? My guess is that they've had people looking at this, and working on it, for the better part of a decade, and, being apple, you just don't here about it until they release it.
                      The cost of development wouldn't necessarily be that large. Sun managed to develop, and deploy, ZFS in about 5 five years.
                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZFS#History

                      And Apple has hugely more resources than sun even had.

                      Originally posted by starshipeleven
                      Originally posted by liam
                      Two, F2FS might work except for that 16TB volume limitation. However, I'd imagine that'll get fixed before long.
                      The point was taking a project with similar goals that exists already and expanding on it. Currently, given the sizes of Apple storage, 16TB will be enough for a long while, plenty of time to fix that limitation.
                      You're forgetting that apple has a huge chunk of the av market, and editing hd/4k video, in an intermediate format, takes up HUGE amounts of space (they literally use TBs for scratch space).
                      If it's a big operation, they are using a san, and then the fs doesn't matter, but the majority of av folks aren't working at those places, and they get by with local arrays attached through thunderbolt.

                      Originally posted by starshipeleven
                      Originally posted by liam
                      Three, how would working on a linux fs help osx?
                      if they adopt it as their own the fs isn't "a linux fs" anymore, like say CUPS, it's mostly developed by Apple, but it is used by Linux too.
                      I'm referring to the impedance mismatch between the two OSs, here.

                      Originally posted by starshipeleven
                      Originally posted by liam
                      Yeah, they could port it, and they'd be less work than designing something from scratch, but that's still a pretty significant amount of work for something that isn't "done" yet.
                      I don't understand what you mean here, porting and expanding a bit something that is "not done yet" remains better than designing it from scratch. We aren't talking of re-implementing shit and simple fs like UDF or FAT.

                      Which is why "apple develops a new modern filesystem from scratch" is imho ruled out

                      That's why it's 99% likely they chose the easiest way, respinning their own HFS+ by adding some features around.
                      It might be better, but I think you are overestimating the work delta between building a narrowly defined fs product, from scratch, and porting an unfinished fs from another os, and ensuring it meets their reliability expectations.

                      Whatever the case, I'd expect we'll know the answer in the next few months.

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