A Stable Linux Kernel API/ABI? "The Most Insane Proposal" For Linux Development

[wdb974]

I don't give a flying f*ck if it's proprietary or not - as the other 99% of users.

Most people don't care about speaking correctly. That doesn't mean they're right not to.
Most people don't care about using their turning signals. Again, it doesn't mean they're right no to use them.
Most people don't care about all sorts of added chemicals in foods and other products. Doesn't mean they have the right attitude.

Besides, the whole "99% of people think like I do" argument reeks of the "let's hide behind a throng to make my argument appear valid" stench. Nice try, though.

But wait, there's more... If you joined these forums in 2010, then certainly you must at the very least know a couple of things about Linux. Things like getting proper hardware support being highly dependent on either a driver from the manufacturer, or enough documentation for the open source community to make the driver themselves. Failing both, the open source community needs to perform some voodoo (reverse engineering) to get to a viable result.

Bottom line: blame the manufacturers for not releasing a proper driver or proper documentation. And not just that, but also blame yourself for not doing research first. To me, your complaint sounds like someone who goes to rent a movie that's only got Wolof audio and no subs whatsoever, and then who complains they wasted their money because they only speak English.

Now, it's time for you to take a long pause and ponder why your diatribe was met with insults.

[Rubble Monkey]

Nah, he wants a stable kernel where you're free to choose the drivers you wanna run. Right now you either get the latest and often buggiest, or you don't have anything at all. It's not about microkernel vs monolithic kernel.

I see. Whenever anyone talks about moving drivers out of the kernel I usually think of a microkernel.

[edmon]

hehehehe i think that this is late 1 april joke )

[birdie]

Umm... Am I missing something? It sounds like he wants linux to become more like a microkernel, and then he compares his ideas to WinXP? A very (if I'm not mistaken) monolithic approach to kernels?

Nah, he wants a stable kernel where you're free to choose the drivers you wanna run. Right now you either get the latest and often buggiest, or you don't have anything at all. It's not about microkernel vs monolithic kernel.

[finalzone]

Yeah, sorry if we don't settle with poor hardware and want to use bleeding-edge, hidg-end hardware. It's MY FAULT. This is the exact mentality why Linux will never succeed on the desktop.

Neither stock Microsoft Windows work out of box *without support from vendors*.

[Rubble Monkey]

Umm... Am I missing something? It sounds like he wants linux to become more like a microkernel, and then he compares his ideas to WinXP? A very (if I'm not mistaken) monolithic approach to kernels?

[c117152]

No, it's a better choice because it performs better. I don't give a flying f*ck if it's proprietary or not - as the other 99% of users. We need performance, not novel sentiments behind their code.

Users of i7, Z170 and Titan X are idiots, according to Linux users. What a bunch of zealots. Signing out.

Then use Windows. Microsoft even implements the linux syscalls and executes ELFs now so you can go right ahead and switch over. I can guarantee you'd get all the performance you'd need there. NT is a fine microkernel so there's really little to no indirections and abstractions in-between their linux syscalls layer and the hardware than linux has.

If you otherwise care about FOSS, realize a stable ABI will allow OEMs to compile and distribute a binary driver once, and never update it again. It takes the one and only incentive \ leverage the linux kernel has to make developers not submit shims and write closed source user land drivers, and throws it out the window.

[twenex]

If I was going to buy a new TV, car, fridge, cooker, etc., I'd do my research and find out which was the best one for my needs and budget. Same if I was going to buy a laptop with (or for) Windows. Linux on the desktop still has problems - the webcam on this laptop, purchased for Linux, doesn't work in Linux, KDE stopped working in Manjaro after the latest update, and I've had machines refuse to boot before. But having upgraded Windows 8.1 to 10, then shortly afterwards taking Windows off the laptop because I wasn't using it, then deciding to put it back on, I ran into a problem because I didn't have the right registration key. It didn't come on the back of a manual with the laptop like it used to, or on the bottom of the laptop, and I had to write it down, only I wrote it down incorrectly.

But this wasn't a technical problem. It was due to three stupid decisions: (a) the stupid decision to use a registration key; (b) the stupid decision not to include the registration key with the (minimal) documentation; (c) the stupid decision not to check the registration key before I got rid of Windows. You will note that only one of these is my stupid decision, and it's also (probably) the only one which was inadvertent. I also (without even trying) once crashed my Dad's "uncrashable" Windows Vista laptop. I know a lot of people were unhappy with Vista, but he wasn't; having seen it crash within 10 minutes of using it, however, I was!

However, I did make the very sensible decision to buy a laptop which was known to work with Linux (except the webcam, which I don't need anyway). I did this via the same expedient outlined above - research. A simple search of "best hardware for Linux" brings up more than six links on DuckDuckGo, so presumably the options on Google would be at least as good.

Furthermore, Linux hardware support is now so good that I'd expect to *have to go out of my way* to buy a laptop on which none of the components anarki2 mentioned worked in Linux (perhaps so I could go trolling about it on Linux forums). Even better, the number of options for getting Linux preinstalled on laptops just keeps growing, and next time I buy a laptop I might well go for one with it installed. I do like the new Dell XPS and Lenovo P70 however, so it's not a dead cert. But maybe by then I'll be able to get either of them preinstalled with Linux. I know for a fact they are likely to work. Linux isn't perfect, by any means. But Windows isn't all it's cracked up to be, and despite their newfound "Microsoft loves Linux" stance, the fact they have effectively introduced spyware into Windows 10 (which by all accounts is one of the things driving more and more people to try out Linux), not to mention that they have effectively abandoned Skype on Linux, means they are no more trustworthy than they were in the bad old "Linux is a cancer" days.

Linux isn't perfect. But it is awesome.

[birdie]

No, it's a better choice because it performs better. I don't give a flying f*ck if it's proprietary or not - as the other 99% of users. We need performance, not novel sentiments behind their code.

Users of i7, Z170 and Titan X are idiots, according to Linux users. What a bunch of zealots. Signing out.

Learn to ignore trolls and fanatics, IOW learn to ignore most people because people are the worse sheep than the real sheep - people cannot imagine themselves not being part of some herd. On Windows/MacOS X forums any criticism in regard to Microsoft/Apple will net you the same hostility and reaction: you're an idiot, etc.

Don't log out, just deal with proper people who use rational mind instead of basic animal instincts. Such people exist but sometimes they are difficult to spot.

[F1esDgSdUTYpm0iy]

This is the exact mentality why Linux will never succeed on the desktop.

It's doing fine on the desktop. Not everyone actually has the money to buy new hardware every f-ing generation. And with Windows versions not having an infinite shelf life, eventually support is going to drop off for not-the-absolute-latest hardware. This hardware I am typing this on, it's slightly newer than my Windows 7 DVD. Guess what that means? Out of the box I am FORCED to actually find some means to get Windows online that does not revolve around my motherboard. Because, well, Windows 7 has no clue what to do with it.

Yeah, buy a new Windows! Great, awesome. Didn't I say I don't have money to keep buying new stuff just because reasons?

Roll on Linux. USB stick, modern distro with modern kernel... everything's working out of the box. Absolutely f-ing everything. Whereas in Windows, basically nothing's working out of the box. Which OS was it again that had the better hardware support?