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  • #21
    Originally posted by debianxfce View Post

    I use Debian testing Xfce, after installation users can manage computers by them self. So far I have installed it to 10 machines of which 4 i did sold.
    ... So the factual support for your argument that people (as in many people) don't want NetworkManager and PA is based on *very* small anecdotal evidence (as you don't even manage the 10 machine you did install).
    My install base is somewhat larger (~50 machines, 20+ active users) and I wouldn't dream of forcing my developers and users to use Alsa directly or wicd (We do use XFCE on low-end netbooks and VMs).

    Granted, my evidence is just as anecdotal (though 5 times bigger), but the sheer install base of GNOME3/KDE5, NM and PA is vastly bigger than that of XFCE, wicd and pure-Alsa.
    As such, if I were you, I'd think twice before making broad statements ("Do people and companies") such as the one you made earlier.
    oVirt-HV1: Intel S2600C0, 2xE5-2658V2, 128GB, 8x2TB, 4x480GB SSD, GTX1080 (to-VM), Dell U3219Q, U2415, U2412M.
    oVirt-HV2: Intel S2400GP2, 2xE5-2448L, 120GB, 8x2TB, 4x480GB SSD, GTX730 (to-VM).
    oVirt-HV3: Gigabyte B85M-HD3, E3-1245V3, 32GB, 4x1TB, 2x480GB SSD, GTX980 (to-VM).
    Devel-2: Asus H110M-K, i5-6500, 16GB, 3x1TB + 128GB-SSD, F33.

    Comment


    • #22
      Originally posted by debianxfce View Post

      There is no sense to install slow, resource hungry and non freely configurable desktops to any machine.
      https://flexion.org/posts/2014-03-me...-environments/

      pulseaudio has same problems today as 3 years ago we had:
      I fail to see how the link you posted supposed to convince me.
      Each of the developer workstations *and* laptops we buy has 16GB RAM. Kernel developers (such as myself) have 32-64GB RAM. I couldn't care less if Fedora/KDE eats 500-600MB as opposed to XFCE/Fedora 300MB.
      More-ever, the amount of memory used by the DE is meager compared to Firefox/Chrome - let alone developers that require multiple Linux and Windows VMs.
      In places we do care about memory usage (servers, VMs) we usually run headless or use XFCE/IceWM.

      As for PA, we manage more than 50 machines, most with on-board audio devices, some (such as the Xeon workstation used to type this) with Creative Labs sound cards. At least 80% of my users use BT or USB headphones.
      All in all we have *zero* (in numbers 0) issues with PA.

      As always, YMMV, but I already pointed out that my anecdotal evidence user-base is larger than yours.
      oVirt-HV1: Intel S2600C0, 2xE5-2658V2, 128GB, 8x2TB, 4x480GB SSD, GTX1080 (to-VM), Dell U3219Q, U2415, U2412M.
      oVirt-HV2: Intel S2400GP2, 2xE5-2448L, 120GB, 8x2TB, 4x480GB SSD, GTX730 (to-VM).
      oVirt-HV3: Gigabyte B85M-HD3, E3-1245V3, 32GB, 4x1TB, 2x480GB SSD, GTX980 (to-VM).
      Devel-2: Asus H110M-K, i5-6500, 16GB, 3x1TB + 128GB-SSD, F33.

      Comment


      • #23
        Originally posted by debianxfce View Post

        Do your users play modern 3d games?

        Your writing reminds me when I was working as windows device driver developer at 90s. Our test group (10 people) had all same machines and windows version. Our first release of the product sold 50 000 pieces and had a fatal bug in different windows version.
        Point being? I already noted that my example is anecdotal.
        oVirt-HV1: Intel S2600C0, 2xE5-2658V2, 128GB, 8x2TB, 4x480GB SSD, GTX1080 (to-VM), Dell U3219Q, U2415, U2412M.
        oVirt-HV2: Intel S2400GP2, 2xE5-2448L, 120GB, 8x2TB, 4x480GB SSD, GTX730 (to-VM).
        oVirt-HV3: Gigabyte B85M-HD3, E3-1245V3, 32GB, 4x1TB, 2x480GB SSD, GTX980 (to-VM).
        Devel-2: Asus H110M-K, i5-6500, 16GB, 3x1TB + 128GB-SSD, F33.

        Comment


        • #24
          Originally posted by debianxfce View Post

          We use gstreamer, it does not take cpu time and crash games like pa does.
          For the life of me I can remember having PA crash on me.
          ... And gstreamer doesn't solve BT and USB device issues.

          - Gilboa
          oVirt-HV1: Intel S2600C0, 2xE5-2658V2, 128GB, 8x2TB, 4x480GB SSD, GTX1080 (to-VM), Dell U3219Q, U2415, U2412M.
          oVirt-HV2: Intel S2400GP2, 2xE5-2448L, 120GB, 8x2TB, 4x480GB SSD, GTX730 (to-VM).
          oVirt-HV3: Gigabyte B85M-HD3, E3-1245V3, 32GB, 4x1TB, 2x480GB SSD, GTX980 (to-VM).
          Devel-2: Asus H110M-K, i5-6500, 16GB, 3x1TB + 128GB-SSD, F33.

          Comment


          • #25
            Originally posted by debianxfce View Post


            " Where only one or a few anecdotes are presented, there is a larger chance that they may be unreliable due to cherry-picked or otherwise non-representative samples of typical cases.
            "

            That is not very academic approach to a scientific discussion. Sure there are more gamers with hifi wired speakers than kernel developers with bluetooth headsets. For the bluez driver it is really bad that pulseaudio must be present because of some mariginal and useless use. Running pulseaudio corrupts bluetooth filetransfer. There are many other problems too:
            https://bugs.freedesktop.org/buglist...0-0=PulseAudio

            SPK:2XB&W DM601S2
            I never claimed that my anecdotal evidence represent anything *but* by own fairly limited network with 40+ machines.
            Reminder: I was not the one to make broad statements such as:

            "Do people and companies really want and use pulseaudio, network manager and gnome3? gstreamer, wicd,and xfce are much more faster and stable."
            To sum up my POV:
            We have a fairly large Fedora based network with ~30 desktops, ~15 laptops, ~20 servers and countless VMs.
            We have hardware ranging from Atom CPUs (netbooks, appliances), assortments of AMD Phenom (desktops), Intel core2, i3s, i5s and i7s (desktops and notebooks) and Intel E3s E5s and E7s workstations and servers (including high-end 4S servers).

            You made a very broad statement based on a bug report and 10 (?) machines that you've installed.
            I'm made a far narrower rebuttal statement based on a far larger network (compared to yours).
            Unlike you, I never claimed that my network represent anything but my own personal experience. (I was the one to use the term "anecdotal" in the first place).

            - Gilboa
            oVirt-HV1: Intel S2600C0, 2xE5-2658V2, 128GB, 8x2TB, 4x480GB SSD, GTX1080 (to-VM), Dell U3219Q, U2415, U2412M.
            oVirt-HV2: Intel S2400GP2, 2xE5-2448L, 120GB, 8x2TB, 4x480GB SSD, GTX730 (to-VM).
            oVirt-HV3: Gigabyte B85M-HD3, E3-1245V3, 32GB, 4x1TB, 2x480GB SSD, GTX980 (to-VM).
            Devel-2: Asus H110M-K, i5-6500, 16GB, 3x1TB + 128GB-SSD, F33.

            Comment


            • #26
              Originally posted by debianxfce View Post

              It is still far less than ubuntu steam gamers that suffer with pulseaudio and networkmanager. Sure bugreports are more scientific evidence than your story of happy office, where you do not play games.

              To sum up, even you dear distro admits that there is pulseaudio problems:
              https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/How_t...Audio_problems
              Software has bugs. Even Alsa, even the all mighty Linux kernel.
              Without actual usage numbers (E.g. How many people have issues with PA out of how many users), using bug reports as metrics is borderline irrelevant as its just as anecdotal as my test case.

              To end the debate on my side, PA, SystemD, NM has moved Linux desktop - kicking and screaming - to the 20'th century. You can huff and puff as much as you like, wear the tin-can-hat and claim RedHat works for the NSA, and it will not matter. Game over.
              I would suggest you spend considerable time you waste on making borderline-trollish comments on Phoronix on trying to develop a *viable* alternative to PA, NM and Systemd. Who knows, maybe you'll develop the next Linux base-system / sound / network stack.

              - Gilboa
              Last edited by gilboa; 31 March 2016, 02:04 AM.
              oVirt-HV1: Intel S2600C0, 2xE5-2658V2, 128GB, 8x2TB, 4x480GB SSD, GTX1080 (to-VM), Dell U3219Q, U2415, U2412M.
              oVirt-HV2: Intel S2400GP2, 2xE5-2448L, 120GB, 8x2TB, 4x480GB SSD, GTX730 (to-VM).
              oVirt-HV3: Gigabyte B85M-HD3, E3-1245V3, 32GB, 4x1TB, 2x480GB SSD, GTX980 (to-VM).
              Devel-2: Asus H110M-K, i5-6500, 16GB, 3x1TB + 128GB-SSD, F33.

              Comment

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