Originally posted by matt_g
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Systemd Gains IP Forwarding, IP Masquerading & Basic Firewall Controls
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Originally posted by timtas View PostOne problem might be the fear that more and more software starts to depend on systemd, thus reducing the choice of software non-systemd systems can use. The fear stems from the fact that udev was promised to never depend on systemd and then suddenly did, that the leading systemd developer explicetely asked the Gnome developers to hard depend on systemd, which it now does, afaik. And no, I'm not gonna pull out that mailing list posts for you, I know I have read them and if you want proof, go find it yourself.
Integrating all those things into systemd is actually the only way to save them at this point. It ensures a stable programming model for the future. And that is what Linux needs right now.
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Originally posted by Bart View PostSo with your logic if someone comes and takes your car and tells you that you must use a pair of ice skates to get to work all year round, then that's your fault? You must not be very intelligent, since it isn't my fault that systemd is being force fed down everyone's throats and that it is eating the Operating System. It isn't my fault that when people go to their distro's to help keep their beloved init system alive or to give an alternative that they get shunned because it's not systemd, because that is systemd's fault. Systemd came in and took over without giving anyone a chance to stop it. You can love your systemd but you will see that there was really two sides in this and not one (systemd) and that your beloved Linux is no longer Linux, that in fact it is SystemdOS. Just so you know Linux is about the user/community not the developer.
When you buy a car, you don't get free upgrades of it in the future...
It's a pretty bad analogy...
As for Linux being about the community, again I am not sure.
Linus created it for himself and before it became any big, many devs joined as well for themselves.
On the other hand GNU was created for the users/community.
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If you want a car analogy here you go:
There once was a car called System V Unix it worked pretty well in the 1990's but by now it is beginning to show its age, it didn't have power steering and the fuel ecconomy was not what you'd expect from a modern vehicle. A mechanic called Poettering came along and took a look at it and decided to replace the old steering system (known as sys V init) with a modern power steering design the car dealerships (distributions) like his improvements so much they decided to incorporate them into their production models. Unfortunately a bunch of customers got uppity they didn't like the fact that they could now park their new cars so much easier then they could previously. These people had always steered their cars with great difficultly and damned if some mechanic from Red Hat was going to change how they steered. You see to these people the fact their cars had the turning circle of a boat and was unweildly as hell to manage was a point of pride.
Most people were greatful for the improved steering and got on with their lives. A little while later Poettering decided that those old drum brakes could do with improvement so he designed a new Anti lock Breaking System it was much safer and anyone who knew anything about mechanical engineering agreed it was a superior solution. Then those customers got uppity again "first our steering now our breaks when will the madness end" they cried. These people made some superious claims "Antilock breaks are so much more complex they are anti-Unix... breaks should only do one thing... Anti lock breaks aren't needed its a bunch of uneccesary bloat."
Poettering and his friends would go on to redesign and improve many parts of the cars "plumbing layer" each time he did the same ignorant uniformed opinions would pipe up.
I hope that helps.
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Originally posted by matt_g View PostIf you want a car analogy here you go:
(Humongus Snip for space savings)
I hope that helps.
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Originally posted by geearf View PostHmmm, I don't believe anyone forces you to update your system.
When you buy a car, you don't get free upgrades of it in the future...
It's a pretty bad analogy...
As for Linux being about the community, again I am not sure.
Linus created it for himself and before it became any big, many devs joined as well for themselves.
On the other hand GNU was created for the users/community.
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Oh. My. God. I just checked SystemD github and found this commit https://github.com/systemd/systemd/c...ec63a0094f5c4f
I have no idea what it does but it looks evil, can we please start a flamewar?
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Originally posted by duby229 View PostI'm sorry gilboa, but this just isn't right. I have massive respect for you, but you're wrong on this respect.
I can help with tracking down bugs or with documentation. But, I'm not a coder. I've tried to learn, but I don't have the skills for it. (more or less it's the organization skills) Sometimes you need to kick people in the balls to convince them to act.
If you like systemd and it works for you, then great. But, don't assume that your needs are the same as everyone elses.
Second, I'm not saying you shouldn't "kick their balls", I am suggesting that it is grossly ineffective, and generates a lot of animosity which or more less nullifies any chance that your views will be heard.
In 2-3 years, the Linux user-mode base system will be unified into a single project - much like the Linux kernel. I doubt that there's a way to stop it. (Most, if not all the corporate backers behind Linux swear by it).
You (as in people who dislike systemd) have one shot at this. For Devuan to become a real alternative to this base system, a lot of smart people need to stop wasting time in Phoronix/LWN/OSNews/Slashdot/etc, and start hacking/testing/documenting/etc.
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Originally posted by Bart View PostYou took my post out of context, as there was a quote from MoonMoon stating that since the init system that we are use to is being ripped away and replaced with systemd is our the users fault. I was just taking their logic and putting in play, to show how dumb that logic really is. You can't expect to place blame on the innocent, there are plenty of posts on here already that actually point at the person or persons to blame. I myself am sick of the whole systemd garbage. Look at Gentoo they give you choice of which you want to run, but they are the only ones, the rest are forcing it down your throats and seems like no one gives a shit. Everyone seems to be "oh it's what happens", I think people forgets that Linux is not a huge corporation like Microsoft and just goes on with whatever.
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