C4 Engine Drops Linux Support, Calls It "Frankenstein OS"

[Shoost]

emotional outburst is screaming out of rage, not dropping nuke.



that just confirms my claim. how come i don't after 20 years or so of doing business? i learned the hard way in the early years which project can survive and deliver and which one can't. checking viability/license/development model.... is more important than price. you're betting your work on it

Sounds more like you are full of it. I'm interested to get this list of 20 year old game engines, though :lol:

Where do all these guys with 20+ years as game programmers who never had a problem with [fill in the blank] come from? One of life's biggest mysteries.

i don't even like Windows or OSX, but name calling shows your maturity

What name calling? Whatever I said you are overreacting, no insult was intended.

i find the relation of taking a toy to a child in the park. he will cry until mother buys him another one and then its like nothing happened.

Or like an "emotional outburst" as I said already? I think we all get at least one every couple years.

also, as far as price goes. Unreal is not 25%. it's fair model as it is possible


you can even cancel subscription after first payment and you're still owning viable license. it's a license tailored to fit indie studios with the least start cost possible.

I thought it was higher than that. Still, you are at their mercy as far as future pricing and continued availability go. That's not a big deal when you have a large team/budget, but it's a much bigger deal when you don't.

[Meteorhead]

Ubuntu != Linux. For all we care, Ubuntu may burn in hell. Debian certainly has documentation on preseeding though:

https://www.debian.org/releases/etch/hppa/apb.html.en

https://www.debian.org/releases/whee...le-preseed.txt

Ubuntu != Linux, but Ubuntu ∈ Linux. Anything that applies to linux should apply to Ubuntu. I am aware that many OSS fans think of Ubuntu as herecy, and that the world would be better off without it. In my opinion, linux is fragmanted. Not as badly as Android, but it is most certainly not a homogenous system. While it is a great strength, it is also a great weakness, specially when it comes to games.

I am aware that "prostituting linux for the sake of game dev companies" is a debate of it's own, linux with it's current X.Org dominance is most certainly not what people developing games want. WinAPI and WinRT both are superior in so many ways (vs X.Org and XInput) that I don't even know where to start. (Yes, Wayland is coming. I took a look at it a while ago, and was not that amused with it. Maybe I should revisit it sometime.) The fact that the device resources as OS handles and resources inside the desktop compositor are the same makes life sooo much easier. That is only possible, if the 2 are developed under the same project. People can say that Mir is the devil himself incarnated, and it's work thrown out the window, but the way I see it (a developer having my share of OpenGL developing on both Windows and Linux), coding a wrapper against Windows took 40 lines and 2 hours of my work (incuding reading documentation and stuff), and I stopped with linux at 600 lines and 3 days. The stuff Qt claims, that doing OpenGL is enough reason alone to depend on Qt is damned true. Graphics programming (even just getting a damned context) is a nightmare on linux. It is not a consistent operating system. If Mir manages to solve this on Ubuntu at least, that would de a great favor for the entire linux ecosystem, but that is just my opinion.

Let the tomatoes rain!

[Shoost]

emotional outburst is screaming out of rage, not dropping nuke.



that just confirms my claim. how come i don't after 20 years or so of doing business? i learned the hard way in the early years which project can survive and deliver and which one can't. checking viability/license/development model.... is more important than price. you're betting your work on it



i don't even like Windows or OSX, but name calling shows your maturity



i find the relation of taking a toy to a child in the park. he will cry until mother buys him another one and then its like nothing happened.

also, as far as price goes. Unreal is not 25%. it's fair model as it is possible


you can even cancel subscription after first payment and you're still owning viable license. it's a license tailored to fit indie studios with the least start cost possible.

Mods won't approve my posts but unreal engine is 17 years old and source engine only 10, so if you never switched engines in your 20+ year game programmer career there must be one that's 20 years old which I never heard of :lol:

[justmy2cents]

This is one area I can say Linux is designed WRONG. Device drivers should not be in the kernel at all, period, blob or otherwise.

ok, that is one point i couldn't ever agree on, but this would be just 2 people arguing their opinion on internet. well, in fact rest of what you say makes decent viewpoint from someone more versed to Windows world. if i'd start making complaints about Windows, points would be pretty similar

Yes, DLL Hell was a major problem in 9x. It got fixed in NT. How anyone can support the way Linux handles this is beyond me.

now, this is the point where not that i don't agree. i just want to point you to the answer. instead of what and how... look how Steam runtime does it. Steam runtime provides most of the libraries that are already present in 99% of Linux setups. and Steam runtime libs always override the system ones.

~/.local/share/Steam/ubuntu12_32/steam-runtime/run.sh

once you see how trivial this is, there is no reason for claims like that

[Cyber Killer]

This is one area I can say Linux is designed WRONG. Device drivers should not be in the kernel at all, period, blob or otherwise.

There are extensive discussions on the net about the architecture of monolithic vs microkernel systems. Let's not copy them here ;-).

Nowadays, DLL updates are very minor, usually adds. Worst case, you plop the requisite version of a .dll file in the local directory, rather then using the system .dll. Yes, DLL Hell was a major problem back in Win9x, but it's been a non-problem for over a decade now.

Likewise on GNU - you can plop a specific compiled lib (usually a file with an 'so' extension) anywhere, e.g. in your apps directory or subdirectory and tell the system to use that when executing your app by a simple command: LD_LIBRARY_PATH=$LD_LIBRARY_PATH:/extra/path1 /path/to/your/binary (also with relative paths)

Also you can have multiple versions of the same lib installed system wide. It's required that when a lib breaks binary compatibility then it has to be indicated by the so version of the compiled file (visible after the file extension, e.g. libexample.so.2, libexample.so.3, etc).

This points to a design issue. It's 2015, and this shouldn't be considered acceptable to anyone.

There is no design issue, GNU was designed as an open system, with sources freely available. This doesn't work only in a single scenario - proprietary code, where someone doesn't want to give the source code to be compiled by the distro maintainer or the user for their specific system.

One would think that over the years the IT industry should move towards more open code and licenses, not more closed with multimilion budgets, celebrities, shows etc... blah ;-P.

[Meteorhead]

Ubuntu != Linux. For all we care, Ubuntu may burn in hell. Debian certainly has documentation on preseeding though:

(My post disappeared without being posted, rewriting it.)

Ubuntu != Linux, but Ubuntu ∈ Linux. Anything that holds for Linux in general holds for Ubuntu as well. And here's my 5 cents worth of thought:

Linux as an ecosystem is fragmented. Not as badly as Android, but still. I have had my fair share of graphics programming under both Windows and Linux, and the difference is incomprehensible. Qt claims that doing OpenGL is enough reason to depend on Qt. This statement is 100% true. I was opting for writing a wrapper of a lightweight OpenGL context. Windows: 2 hours and 60 lines of code for all versions of Windows and OpenGL. Linux: I stopped at 600 LoC and 3 days trying to handle all version of GLX and OpenGL. Not counting input. (again WinAPI vs XInput is not a match, it's a massacre.) And if you look at the projects SFML, Qt, WxWidgets... it is not the Windows part that's bloated. Obtaining an OpenGL context on linux has spawned multiple projects on their own rights. All this because the resource manager and the desktop compositors are separate projects, all with their own handles and descriptors with no specific interface between them. Wayland and Weston will save us from some of the X.Org.Hell, but if Mir could get ALL of this under one project for just one linux distro, that would do a great deal for the entire ecosystem.

This however, is solely my opinion. Let the tomatoes rain!

[Meteorhead]

Ubuntu != Linux. For all we care, Ubuntu may burn in hell. Debian certainly has documentation on preseeding though:

(My post disappeared without being posted, rewriting it.)

Ubuntu != Linux, but Ubuntu is part of Linux. Anything that holds for Linux in general holds for Ubuntu as well. And here's my 5 cents worth of thought:

Linux as an ecosystem is fragmented. Not as badly as Android, but still. I have had my fair share of graphics programming under both Windows and Linux, and the difference is incomprehensible. Qt claims that doing OpenGL is enough reason to depend on Qt. This statement is 100% true. I was opting for writing a wrapper of a lightweight OpenGL context. Windows: 2 hours and 60 lines of code for all versions of Windows and OpenGL. Linux: I stopped at 600 LoC and 3 days trying to handle all version of GLX and OpenGL. Not counting input. (again WinAPI vs XInput is not a match, it's a massacre.) And if you look at the projects SFML, Qt, WxWidgets... it is not the Windows part that's bloated. Obtaining an OpenGL context on linux has spawned multiple projects on their own rights. All this because the resource manager and the desktop compositors are separate projects, all with their own handles and descriptors with no specific interface between them. Wayland and Weston will save us from some of the X.Org.Hell, but if Mir could get ALL of this under one project for just one linux distro, that would do a great deal for the entire ecosystem.

This however, is solely my opinion. Let the tomatoes rain!

[justmy2cents]

I haven't used Linux since Fedora 6 was the big thing. But I remember how long it took to get the right libs downloaded and configured to actually DO anything. And I remember everything breaking again the first time I did an update. And so on. And from many of the comment I read here, this still happens quite often (though it does seem to be getting better).

This points to a design issue. It's 2015, and this shouldn't be considered acceptable to anyone.

dang, forgot this one. i apologize

Linux has gone far since October 24, 2006. maybe before making claims you should see if they still fit the present instead of making claims based on 9 years ago

[gamerk2]

now, this is the point where not that i don't agree. i just want to point you to the answer. instead of what and how... look how Steam runtime does it. Steam runtime provides most of the libraries that are already present in 99% of Linux setups. and Steam runtime libs always override the system ones.

~/.local/share/Steam/ubuntu12_32/steam-runtime/run.sh

once you see how trivial this is, there is no reason for claims like that

Runtime libs can override the system ones on Windows too. That's why Windows typically ends up with a gazillion versions of the MSVC Runtime Library installed, since every game wants to install and use a different one. And 99.99% of the time, you can uninstall all of them and just use the system one just fine.

Linux has gone far since October 24, 2006. maybe before making claims you should see if they still fit the present instead of making claims based on 9 years ago

I make claims based on the threads I see posted here. And while I don't personally run Linux OSs anymore, I still have to interact with them at work.

Then again, we got a VAX/VMS server backed, a Windows 3.1 PC, some DEC hardware we need to keep running, and one of these.

[prodigy_]

This is one area I can say Linux is designed WRONG. Device drivers should not be in the kernel at all, period, blob or otherwise.

Look, guys, we've got a real expert here.