Rich Geldreich On The State Of Linux Gaming

[pal666]

I also use GDB on Linux and I love it a lot. However, I've done some Windows programming so I might be able to explain what is missing.

Visual Studio is neat because you can hover over a variable and it displays the value. It also shows all the local variables, etc. And unlike GDB it has all the C++ STL display scripts included, you don't have to install a plugin package to dump a std::vector for example.

And windbg does a whole lot of neat things when you learn how to really use it. I like to read blogs like Raymond Chen's Old New Thing and NT Debugging and they often use debugger tricks. Some of the tricks windbg can pull off are really amazing. Yes, GDB can also do them with enough scripting added but like with the STL display, it isn't included by default. Some of the tricks I remember are dumping the state of all the kernel handles, showing what's waiting on mutexes, showing the thread TLS contents, recovering meaningful information from a scrobbled stack, etc.

on non-broken distros gdb "has all the C++ STL display scripts included, you don't have to install a plugin package to dump a std::vector for example"
and in eclipse (which is studio's counterpart, not gdb) you "can hover over a variable and it displays the value"
so it seems like your problems are not in linux, but in you

[johnc]

AMD drivers are getting a lot of flack. My 6850 runs TF2 great with the open source drivers. In about 3 years it's plausible that a PC, running Linux and with a high end AMD APU, will be a drop-in replacement for a console.

That's great and all but the site Rich pointed to showed how Linux ports of some popular games had lower framerates than Windows -- and not by a little.

It was also pointed out how some of these porting groups are saying "yeah it might run on AMD and all but we're not really supporting that hardware right now".

So when you stack that up against the pro-gamer crowd that is on Windows, you don't have a very compelling platform.

Why are devs going to target Linux when Windows runs circles around it? Why would a company sell a Steam Machine console when they can slap Windows on there instead? This idea that "mediocrity is good enough" doesn't cut it in a competitive marketplace.

[DMJC]

what's needed is to cure you from masochism
nvidia does not release docs and does not pay developers to produce open driver, so it gets no money and no coding

How is it that nouveau can get their drivers running faster than comparable Amd hardware, despite having to reverse engineer their entire driver? This website has posted tons of benchmarks and comparisons including the ones where nouveau with reclocking forced on thrashed every other card out there. The point I'm trying to make is this: why are we hand holding AMD, and letting people say that Linux' drivers suck. When the reality is that Intel, NVIDIA, and reverse engineered Nvidia do not have these problems? The real problem is being caused by Amd. Whether its a lack of linux/OpenGL developer knowledge or resources, or bad hardware design that stops OpenGL from working correctly. Intel/NVIDIA hardware has not been having these problems.

Btw this is my position: for 13 years I've used linux and nvidia/Intel hardware for Linux game development/testing. I'm planning to completely ditch the blob as soon as Nouveau runs OpenGL 4.2 at reasonable speed. I don't need tessellation yet, and I'm not fussed about OpenCL, SLI or TV output. I'm the same as most people here, I want completely free hardware. That said I'm not going to hold my breath for a company that has never gotten its stuff to work correctly. Intel is really the best FOSS GPU maker. Nouveau just happens to be making Nvidia have the fastest open source GPUs.

[DMJC]

on non-broken distros gdb "has all the C++ STL display scripts included, you don't have to install a plugin package to dump a std::vector for example"
and in eclipse (which is studio's counterpart, not gdb) you "can hover over a variable and it displays the value"
so it seems like your problems are not in linux, but in you

I dev in C more than C++ and in Valkyrie you can hover over variables which dumps the full contents and even lets you drill down to ridiculous detail levels.

[Awesomeness]

Without Steam machines, Linux Gaming is a dead horse.

Android is Linux and there are not only plenty of games, at least Android on Intel uses the Mesa graphics stack.

[sarmad]

When it comes to the success of Steam Machines and Linux gaming there is only one thing that matters, which is AAA titles. If Valve can push studios to release their AAA titles on Linux then it won't matter if they only target nVidia's binary drivers because the masses will simply buy the Steam Machines that are equipped with nVidia cards and binary drivers anyway. We still don't see any Ubisoft or EA or Activision or Bungie titles on Linux and without them gaming on Linux won't really take off.

[dungeon]

That's great and all but the site Rich pointed to showed how Linux ports of some popular games had lower framerates than Windows -- and not by a little.

Who will know anything about performance if Gabe Newell say today: We release Half Life 3 today, will be available only for platform we like, so Steam OS only - you heard it gamers, install SteamOS NOW!!!

Are we liked that, yeah we like it Yeah Yeah

Is there better way to increase % of some OS userbase, then to do some like vendor lock-in feature Microsoft do that so mayn times, console vendors do it by nature, why can't GabeN do the same

Then tommorow, Gabe Newell again say here we go ladies and gents for today we have: Dota 3!!! SteamOS only, of course

We can break OS X steam userbase in a few months if not days, only by that mini revolution

So really API does not matter OpenGL is fine these days, force powers like that is what matters

[johnc]

Who will know anything about performance if Gabe Newell say today: We release Half Life 3 today

Does Valve even know how to make games anymore?

Maybe my passive-aggressive voice would be more apt to be heard on 4chan and reddit and the like... but I'm just floating out there what a lot of people are thinking. We don't really see a lot of product from Valve these days. I think they make money by getting a cut of hat sales or something like that.

[dungeon]

Does Valve even know how to make games anymore?

Maybe my passive-aggressive voice would be more apt to be heard on 4chan and reddit and the like... but I'm just floating out there what a lot of people are thinking. We don't really see a lot of product from Valve these days. I think they make money by getting a cut of hat sales or something like that.

That is the point, market chages always cames not by evolution and not what you, I nor anybody expected .

Basically nothing depends so much on reddit or what random people says on net, but more what people with money and of course force powers are ready to do

[blackiwid]

Hmm I didnt read all pages so sorry if I repeat some stuff.

But one did messure the success of steamos with the linux sales. Tahts in so many ways false:

1. you dont need steamos to buy unter linux steam games
2. steam(os...) as plattform is released with teh hardware, not only the konsole like pcs they will sell at some point, but there is not even teh controller availible.

its like trying to messure the success of Playstation 5 when somewhere a firmware version was released and somebody got it running on a windows emulator or something like that.

And the steammaschines as the real product or plattform to sell the software have good changes to succeed, because remember consoles start often with 1-5 games at the beginning and then days or months later more games come out. Even emultionan of old games doesnt work always. Steammachines will support from the start 1000+x games. And you even can activate them if you bought some of them before under windows. Tahts maybe for some not important because they want to use only console liek devices and do not play on computers for years or never, but it does not hurt them, but for some its a nice feature.

So if after 6 months of the release of steammaschines with the controlelr we are still at 1.5% linux sales, then its time to sing a death-song.

And yes I think it could happen with exclusive games from valve but not such big pc sellers, they would start a shitstorm in their direction, but maybe they can give rabats if you buy it under linux/steamos, or release some new games for linux/steamos only.

But I dont think that there is a need to force people away from windows, its more the question reducing the pain to switch. or the reasons to not switch. I think most gamers would happily switch if there are enough games for them under linux. Because everybody knows windows has some disadvantages, like price, like nsa stuff etc. like having reinstall the os every 1-2 years, because windows cant make it upgradable over the internet not even over the cd, typing in lisense keys etc etc.

Nobody forced people to switch from symbian and co to android, android is not really great but more free. (not enough for me, but at that time a step forward). And it sucks maybe less then the other did suck, but its far far away from great even today.