Lennart Poettering On The Open-Source Community: A Sick Place To Be In

[gens]

Let me get this straight: TeamBlackFox posts a hate-filled rant, composed almost entirely of personal attacks against one of hundreds of developers of a project. He or she finished with four "technical arguments", only two of which are actually technical, and one of those has already been refuted and the other is transparently bogus and was addressed as such. Yet you criticize everyone else for not wanting to "talk technicalities in peace"? Sorry, no, if TeamBlackFox wants to "talk technicalities in peace", that is great. But that is not the sort of discussion that TeamBlackFox started.


Ah, I see now. It is only your opponents who should "talk technicalities in peace". People on your side, however, can use personal attacks and baseless dismissal whenever you want. Thanks, that clears things up.

TeamBlackFox, as i see, insulted only Lennart
that does not make him/her any better or worse then Lennart himself, who (a bit less directly) insulted many more people
this also does not excuse him, ofc

i myself never insulted anybody who i talked to about Lennartware (lies, i did once and it was after telling him 5 times to stop saying that groups are a systemd only thing)
and yet i got insulted many many times

i don't mind a lite insult if i deserved it,
like i remember getting yelled at once when i said that to get an 8 bit integer you would write something like "typedef char int8;" (that is not entirely accurate)

actually, i have been on the internets for some... idk 5-6 years
and the only time where i got personally insulted was here and was about me saying something about something Lennart wrote about systemd and/or PA
and it was not only once
(lies again, i play dota2)

meanwhile, i have coded alsa things and i have coded DSP and i have looked at PA
but if i say something about how horrible some design choices of that piece of software are, i get sent to a Lennart blog post that does not say anything relevant to what i said
and sometimes i get.. indirectly insulted (like "you don't know")

also i don't give a fuck about "camps"
just like nations, interest groups and any other similar... whatever they are called, there will always be some idiots
and it is not always clear who they are, as some idiots, counterintuitively, are articulate

[finalzone]

Using of PulseAudio is causing problems with e.g. increased latency and CPU usage. There are now over 300 bugs in open state for PulseAudio.

Based on which applications? Note that number of bugs can be deceiving because some of them are possibly either duplicate of each other and less obvious.

Examples:
https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69711 (critical bug - 8 months between reporting with patch and committing)

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=79778

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81075

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81288

From the list above, the reporters has yet to confirm about the suggested patches, one of the bugs are already fixed and some applications like Flash and Skype are closed source thus harder to work on. Missing in the information are which version as the recent releases have PulseAudio support enabled by default.

[finalzone]

Your post don't contain any relevant information.

Using of PulseAudio is causing problems with e.g. increased latency and CPU usage. There are now over 300 bugs in open state for PulseAudio.

Running on Fedora 21 Alpha on Sony Vaio running on Intel? Core? Duo CPU T2250 @ 1.73GHz ? 2 using PulseAudio 5.0.
Opening up Rhythmbox, Totem, Flash Player via youtube and letting play simultaneously. The CPU consumption according to the monitor report was 4% max. It seems the mentioned issue possibly applied on the old version of PulseAudio running on specific applications.

[gens]

Running on Fedora 21 Alpha on Sony Vaio running on Intel? Core™ Duo CPU T2250 @ 1.73GHz ? 2 using PulseAudio 5.0.
Opening up Rhythmbox, Totem, Flash Player via youtube and letting play simultaneously. The CPU consumption according to the monitor report was 4% max. It seems the mentioned issue possibly applied on the old version of PulseAudio running on specific applications.

unless you changed the default resampling.. function used or all those sources put out the same sampling rate and bit depth as the output, PA should use relatively plenty of cpu
cpu frequency scaling also matters, since you are using an absolute value for cpu usage


try just playing a sound from one, light, source (like sox, aplay, moc or something like that)
then compare the cpu usage of that source to the cpu usage of PA
set the cpu freq scaling to "performance" for more precise results ( echo "performance" | tee /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu*/cpufreq/scaling_governor )

edit: it also matters on if your sound card boasts a resampling feature, that i know of only one commercial that does (the ICE, aka VIA envy, chip)

[gens]

and some applications like Flash and Skype are closed source thus harder to work on.

why would an audio server care ?
if they incorrectly use the PA API to output sound, it is easy to find out using latrace
a good API should take into account misbehaving applications anyway by returning to them an OVERRUN/UNDERRUN or WTF error code

[kringel]

I'm not sure about the whole open-source community, but I think that rather Red Hat is a sick place:
http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/...cts-your-life/ (second half details Red Hat’s involvement in Linux)

http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/the-dangers-of-software-evangelism/

http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/tso-and-linus-and-the-impotent-rage-against-systemd/

http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/...ed-by-the-nsa/ (not litterally "owned", but they got pwned heavily not only in their random number catastrophe)

And I love this quote from the last article:

Wake up, morons – and that includes you Linus (who likes to call out morons as such himself). Start telling it like it is, and start addressing the real systemic problems in Linux’s engineering – namely that brown shirts like Kay Sievers and Lennart Poettering are just front men for a much uglier reality. Otherwise you’re just trying to sweep back the ocean with a broom – your actions are useless and doomed to fail. Getting angry won’t help – start getting smart, and start developing a genuinely free and open operating system, taking you-know-who out of the loop. If you can’t or won’t do that, then you may as well just surrender Linux to them entirely, which is pretty much the case already.

And check out the video links in this thread:

http://linsux.org/index.php?/topic/225-lennart-poettering-arsehole/

It shows how he deals with the community. It's a talk from a German Chaos Computer Club conference. If I would have been in the audience (no matter where) I would have ran to the stage and would have punched Poettering in his face. Twice. If you think that I would be an aggressive person or something, you look at this short section from this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ERAXJj142o#t=3225s

[blackout23]

If I would have been in the audience (no matter where) I would have ran to the stage and would have punched Poettering in his face. Twice.[/url]

No you would not have done that, since you're probably just another internet tough guy behind a keyboard who get's weak knees once he's outside the house.

[JS987]

I'm not sure about the whole open-source community, but I think that rather Red Hat is a sick place:
http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/...cts-your-life/ (second half details Red Hat?s involvement in Linux)

http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/the-dangers-of-software-evangelism/

http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/tso-and-linus-and-the-impotent-rage-against-systemd/

http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/...ed-by-the-nsa/ (not litterally "owned", but they got pwned heavily not only in their random number catastrophe)

I expected things like these before reading this blog.

[finalzone]

unless you changed the default resampling.. function used or all those sources put out the same sampling rate and bit depth as the output, PA should use relatively plenty of cpu
cpu frequency scaling also matters, since you are using an absolute value for cpu usage

Test was done in stock configuration.

try just playing a sound from one, light, source (like sox, aplay, moc or something like that)
then compare the cpu usage of that source to the cpu usage of PA
set the cpu freq scaling to "performance" for more precise results ( echo "performance" | tee /sys/devices/system/cpu/cpu*/cpufreq/scaling_governor )
edit: it also matters on if your sound card boasts a resampling feature, that i know of only one commercial that does (the ICE, aka VIA envy, chip)

My system both desktop (VIA soundchip) and laptop uses onboard soundcard. Tested both using above method. Still very minimal cpu usage. I will post a full detail later.

[gens]

Test was done in stock configuration.
My system both desktop (VIA soundchip) and laptop uses onboard soundcard. Tested both using above method. Still very minimal cpu usage. I will post a full detail later.

nice
i am in fact interested in the result, since, due to the VIA envy chip, your configuration is the best possible for PA
i would also like to know if there is a difference in cpu usage when playing a 44.1kHz sound compared to a 48kHz sound, as that would show if PA treats your card properly

basically with resampling moved to the sound card, this is mostly a benchmark of the overhead of PA's timing implementation and copy-ing
it is not that precise thou since dealing with alsa adds to the cpu usage of PA


since your card supports resampling, i would also be interested in what is the difference in the cpu usage of the application itself when using the alsa-PA plugin vs raw

pcm.!default{
type hw
card 0
}
ctl.!default{
type hw
card 0
}

this goes into $HOME/.asoundrc, it tells libalsa to use the sound card directly
on any other sound card this would cause problems when trying to play from 2 or more sound sources, but not on your

one system is enough thou, since they have the same sound card chip

maybe i am asking too much


note that this has, for the most part, nothing to do with latency
to properly measure latency would require an M-M 3.5mm cable connecting the cards output to input (and a resistor on it)
as described http://apps.linuxaudio.org/wiki/jack_latency_tests