New Group Calls For Boycotting Systemd

[pandev92]

pulseaudio y systemd, the same sh*t

[sdack]

TL;DR. Megabytes of code (and heap) in pid 1 is something I am grumpy about. But it boots faster than sysv, shuts down immediately, no crashes so far, and no better alternatives from the boycott crowd, so, meh.

Yes yes! Software keeps sucking up more resource with every new year. A simple "Hello World" on a GTK+ button results in an executable with a size of about 7k RAM, a process requiring 14MB RAM, and as many as 68 shared libraries requiring 300MB RAM. And it would not actually run if my computer did not have at least half a GB RAM to hold the remaining OS. Call that "cute as a button"!

[sdack]

This is surprising. I watched a video about a day ago where Linus stated that he does like systemd.

What is surprising? That I still have hope to find my bucket?

[0xBADCODE]

tbh, a consolodated log isn't really such a bad thing. It will save me a lot of effort remote debugging things with users. ("Hmm, ok, can you send me Xorg.0.log... ok, no there there, can you send me dmesg? Hmm, I wonder where gnome-shell logs end up.."). In fact, if you take a step back from the drama and look at it a bit more objectively, it is kind of crazy that we *haven't* had a unified log yet.

In my personal opinion there're many things which are currently clusterfucked when it comes to management/administration. Virtualisation? Part of kernel now? Containers? Resource management? And now you can have multiple states in filesystems like btrfs? It turns out those sysvinit lovers are usually not using things like this at all. So sure, they love it. Because if they would use things like this - they will immediately figure out that VMs and containers creation/management and startup is not someting easy. Kernel comes with KVM and containers/cgroups but ... either you have to use enterprise-grade heavyweight tools, or you end up doing syscalls yourself, like Chromium browser does. Needless to say it would be nice if there is some intermediate way to use kernel features in userspace. Poettering seems to understand this. While his thing seems to be a bit overcomplicated at this point, it looks like he has changed the whole idea how system should work. These days even small and embedded openwrt distro replaces init and replaces it with "lite" version of the same idea: system manager in C which uses configs, uses (their simplified and light) u-bus, provides logging facility and so on.

I also wish people to abandon this /usr/everything idiocy. This /usr only appeared due to lack of space on some machine, eons ago. Now everyone uses this awkward crap and the result is a really weird filesystem hierarchy. Why /usr/bin instead of just /bin? And so on.

btw, anyone noticed that boycott systemd abbreviated == BSD :-P

Ironically, most active systemd haters are BSD users and somesuch . So I guess they just afraid their system administration skills would be obsolete when it comes to Linux. But most BSDs elected to drift down the river like an axe from the town of Byron - they do not even try to improve something or do something new. Perfect choice for system administrators... who are retired and too lazy to learn new tricks.

[pjezek]

many barkings, few creativity

To many people only criticise what they are incapable do better... No reason to waste time with.

[sdack]

I also wish people to abandon this /usr/everything idiocy. This /usr only appeared due to lack of space on some machine, eons ago. Now everyone uses this awkward crap and the result is a really weird filesystem hierarchy. Why /usr/bin instead of just /bin? And so on.

No. The result would be /bin would get so crowded that some executables would likely need to be renamed. /usr/bin is already heavily crowded. Also /bin is meant for executables used mainly by administrators, while /usr is meant for all users.

What is an idiocy is trying to fix what is not broken. This is in part what Gnome 3, pulseaudio and now systemd have been doing, even when it is being done accidentally by the way it is being introduced and developed. They all have been introduced while being far from feature-complete.

[TheBlackCat]

What is an idiocy is trying to fix what is not broken. This is in part what Gnome 3, pulseaudio and now systemd have been doing, even when it is being done accidentally by the way it is being introduced and developed. They all have been introduced while being far from feature-complete.

Thanks for proving my point.

[blackiwid]

lol lol, this nutjobs.

I am open to some folks that maybe fork something or switch distro to a distro that dont use systemd.

And I am totaly open when they somthing polite discuss what disadvantages it has.
To have choices is a good thing.

But always this childish troll rants.

FUCK-THIS-SYSTEMD-CRAP.org or something similar. Like world goes to shit because of this software is just so stupid.

Just create always drama the "linux" community is all about big dramatic reality series.

[interested]

pussaudio is not accepted here.

Are there any desktop Linux distro that doesn't come with Pulseaudio? Even the systemd hating LSD distro has Pulseaudio.

Thanks to Lennart Poettering Linux finally got a system-wide sound deamon, instead of several incompatible DE based sound deamons. It was an almost impossible job to do, but it was executed brilliantly with excellent backwards compatibility and without rewriting the entire sound system or all audio drivers.

Sure, Pulseaudio exposed many many bugs in both ALSA and the sound drivers. I got hit too, since the drivers to my rather obscure internal sound chip was flaky to begin with. I had to use a pci sound-card for quite some time until the bugs where fixed.

But I don't look back to the time before Pulseaudio with rose tinted glasses. Sound on Linux simply sucked and was embarrassingly dysfunctional compared to MS-Windows and Mac OS.

Pulseaudio was a pioneering effort that made the sound system on Linux modern and usable. Even if you don't use Pulseaudio, but just ALSA, you still benefit from the effort, since Pulseaudio became the coordinated developer nexus where sound chip drivers and ALSA could be debugged in a coordinated effort.

Sound on Linux just works and have done for a long time, and Pulseaudio developers like Poettering are a major reason why it is so.

[tiuykor]

I never said Windows was well designed. For some good points on design issues in systemd, see the following blog posts:

http://ewontfix.com/14

http://ewontfix.com/15

That being said, anything that falls under the criteria of being good enough as far as a user can tell "works" for the user. The software engineering need not be good.

This http://ewontfix.com/14 worries me!

I hate having to restart after updates. It's one of the things I love about linux (vs Windows), not having to restart after updates. And there's going to be increased attack surface with systemd use?

I have always been a big fan of Upstart. And was disappointed to see it "lose" in Ubuntu. But if systemd really is bringing what the ewontfix.com/14 article says, I don't see myself staying on a Linux desktop.