Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

New Group Calls For Boycotting Systemd

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by prodigy_ View Post
    Spot on. People are mistaking Lennart's manic hyperactivity for brilliance and his obsession with writing crapware for competence. The guy is a mediocre software designer and programmer at best. He has A LOT of energy but this doesn't necessarily mean he would be able to use it in the best interests of the community even if he wanted to.
    If his software is so bad, it should be very easy for everybody else to write better software.
    He is also not the only developer of systemd etc.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Awesomeness View Post
      If his software is so bad, it should be very easy for everybody else to write better software.
      He is also not the only developer of systemd etc.
      There are two required elements to any volunteer project: skill, and motivation. So far I don't see strong enough motivation to create Yet Another init system. The people who could easily write a better systemd are smart enough to know they don't need it.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by highlandsun View Post
        There are two required elements to any volunteer project: skill, and motivation. So far I don't see strong enough motivation to create Yet Another init system. The people who could easily write a better systemd are smart enough to know they don't need it.
        That is the problem. They don't need, but lots of projects certainly benefit from it. And these projects will continue to use systemd, because those opposed to systemd simply cannot admit that downstream projects actually want these features.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by prodigy_ View Post
          Spot on. People are mistaking Lennart's manic hyperactivity for brilliance and his obsession with writing crapware for competence. The guy is a mediocre software designer and programmer at best. He has A LOT of energy but this doesn't necessarily mean he would be able to use it in the best interests of the community even if he wanted to.
          Yet another lame ad hominem attack on an open source developer. Rather predictable that systemd haters continue with such personal attacks since they have no technical arguments left.

          But lets look at Lennart Poetterings achievements so far:

          He was the major force behind getting sound right on Linux: Before his PulseAudio project, sound was in a sorry state on Linux distros; there where no system wide sound daemon, but several DE specific ones like artsd, that everybody complained about, including the DE developers.
          Making such sound daemons was an extremely hard problem on Linux, which is why no one really attempted to even try to make a system wide one, but just restricted themselves to a limited set of DE programs.

          With PA, Linux finally gained a system wide daemon; PA was a brilliantly executed software project; it had no flag day where every program suddenly had to support a new audio system, it didn't made yet another sound system, but relied on the previous ALSA, there where no major rewrites, just defining a safe subset of ALSA, and then starting the hard work of debugging both ALSA and all the faulty sound chip drivers in Linux at that time. PA became a developer and debugging nexus for all this, which is also why lesser informed people blame PA for ALSA and driver bugs.

          All desktop distros started to use PA from early on, and they continue to do so, despite the PA haters absurd claim, that "PA is broken and doesn't work".

          There were no alternatives to PA before it was invented, and no serious alternatives afterwards, simply because the task is huge, difficult and ungrateful. Even those who smugly announce that they disable PA, benefit from the hard work of debugging ALSA and the sound chip drivers that PA developers like Lennart Poettering did.

          systemd:
          That project is now one of the largest open source projects in existence, with a dozen people with GIT commit access and +600 contributors. The project has attracted some really eminent kernel developers like Greg Kroah-Hartman:
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Kroah-Hartman, and experienced coders from Debian, Gentoo, Red Hat, etc. Hardly a sign of "crapware".

          Besides that, I can inform you that systemd actually works really well and is extremely stable, and has vibrant developer community unlike most of its competing projects.

          All the doom and gloom predictions that systemd was badly programmed and therefore wouldn't work, turned out to blatantly wrong accusations, usually made by some anonymous person without any actually credentials or knowledge about the systemd or low level system programming at all.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by interested View Post
            <Facts>
            When Galileo Galilei was accused of heresy and put before a tribunal of the catholic church, he invited his judges to take a look through his telescope. They refused and said: ``Don't bother us with facts. We've already formed an opinion.''

            Comment


            • Originally posted by interested View Post
              With PA, Linux finally gained a system wide daemon; PA was a brilliantly executed software project; it had no flag day where every program suddenly had to support a new audio system, it didn't made yet another sound system, but relied on the previous ALSA, there where no major rewrites, just defining a safe subset of ALSA, and then starting the hard work of debugging both ALSA and all the faulty sound chip drivers in Linux at that time. PA became a developer and debugging nexus for all this, which is also why lesser informed people blame PA for ALSA and driver bugs.

              All desktop distros started to use PA from early on, and they continue to do so, despite the PA haters absurd claim, that "PA is broken and doesn't work".
              This is what really pisses me off with both systemd and pulseaudio defenders. There is never any problem with either, the problem is always elsewhere, even if everything worked perfectly before either was installed.
              If you don't have sound the fault is due to buggy alsa drivers - however, in real world, the fix for 90% of the sound issues I've found is always "apt-get purge pulseaudio" (or the equivalent in your distro). Just yesterday I had to remove it from a PC to be able to have audio over HDMI again (which had worked perfectly until skype dragged in pulseaudio). "PA was a brilliantly executed software project" must be one of the biggest lies I've seen written anywhere, and only those that haven't suffered the first releases of pulseaudio (before LP left) can believe that absurdity. Pulseaudio wasn't adopted because it is the best or even a fully working solution - it was adopted because of politics.
              Besides, claiming that LP is some kind of genius and that pulseaudio works great (which it doesn't) thanks to him is to conveniently forget that pulseaudio just started working somewhat after LP dropped it.

              The second thing that really, really, pisses me off is LP's fanclub calling every critic a "hater". I never was a pulseaudio hater or a systemd hater until called that by some fanboi. While criticisms are accepted and handled properly, I even cooperate within my limited time and ability. But when some jerk labels criticism as hate, that is when I start opposing and stop debating, as it is easy to see that the fanboi won't even bother with facts.

              You criticise ad hominem attacks, but you are the ones labelling every critic as hater. Systemd and pulseaudio critics are becoming extremists, that is true. But the fault lies squarely on the fanboy camp, that refuses all arguments and keeps pushing ahead without any consideration for any use case different from theirs.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ceage View Post
                When Galileo Galilei was accused of heresy and put before a tribunal of the catholic church, he invited his judges to take a look through his telescope. They refused and said: ``Don't bother us with facts. We've already formed an opinion.''
                Galileo Galilei was accused for promoting a heliocentric view, a problem that can't be decided by looking into a telescope, so that story is probably yet another fabricated "feel good" story. Famous quotes and anecdotes without precise source, are usually made up or heavily distorted from reality.

                Also, remember that the hard data and facts spoke against a Copernican solar system; no star parallax could be observed, the predictions of the planetary movements didn't correspond with the observed positions, unlike the Tychonic and geocentric systems that could be arbitrarily precise at the cost of complexity.

                Anyway, Lennart Poettering's major software creations like PulseAudio, Avahi and systemd, have all been extremely successful projects, used on all major distros. Especially PA and systemd are extremely impressive projects because they solved really hard problems, and solved them while still being backwards compatible. No "flag day" where everything old stopped working, and everything had to support a brand new way of doing things by doing rewrites. This shows that Lennart Poettering is an excellent software engineer.

                It is quite laughable that people that have made no success software, or no known contribution to open source projects, and with no other credentials to their anonymous internet handles to why they should be able to judge the systemd code quality, just spout out that "Lennart is a mediocre programmer" and that systemd is badly programmed etc.

                It is seems more likely that those statements are deliberate lies in order to discredit systemd, since the systemd haters have lost all the technical arguments against systemd, and have been routed from every Linux distro of importance.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by ceage View Post
                  When Galileo Galilei was accused of heresy and put before a tribunal of the catholic church, he invited his judges to take a look through his telescope. They refused and said: ``Don't bother us with facts. We've already formed an opinion.''
                  I would never have thought of comparing the systemd fanclub with the inquisition, but it is indeed an apt comparison.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by interested View Post
                    Galileo Galilei was accused for promoting a heliocentric view, a problem that can't be decided by looking into a telescope, so that story is probably yet another fabricated "feel good" story. Famous quotes and anecdotes without precise source, are usually made up or heavily distorted from reality.
                    Although the events are correct, the people are not. Galileo did invite leaders at the time to look through a telescope, but it wasn't a Catholic tribunal, but rather Catholic (or rather Jesuit) astronomers. Things like the phases of Venus and the moons of Jupiter, which could been seen through a telescope, had a direct bearing on the idea of heliocentrism, and others, like mountains on the Moon, were very closely related ideas.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jbernardo View Post
                      You criticise ad hominem attacks, but you are the ones labelling every critic as hater. Systemd and pulseaudio critics are becoming extremists, that is true. But the fault lies squarely on the fanboy camp, that refuses all arguments and keeps pushing ahead without any consideration for any use case different from theirs.
                      First, no software will ever satisfy all use-cases. At a certain point, software developers have to decide that certain use-cases are too niche to be worth hurting other, more common use-cases. The burden is on the opponents of systemd to show that their use-cases are important enough to be worth the taking time and energy away from other, more common uses-cases, and in many cases outright hurting other uses-cases.

                      Second, for all the complaints about systemd, people criticizing it have been very short on actual valid use-cases. Pretty much the only valid one I have seen is that it is not well suited to very low-end embedded systems, which is a valid complaint, but systemd doesn't really interfere in this area anyway since the software that depends on systemd also isn't suited to such systems. People complain about not liking the design, but not liking the design is not a "use0case". People have complained about it having features they don't need, but having features you don't need isn't a "use-case". "I just don't want to use it" isn't a "use-case". Not liking the person or (what you think is) the company behind something certainly isn't a "use-case".

                      So besides ultra low-power embedded systems, what are the use-cases that systemd supporters aren't considering?

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X