Originally posted by stan
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Lennart Poettering Talks Up His New Linux Vision That Involves Btrfs
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Originally posted by johnc View PostIt's not that I'd have to, it's that it's something that wouldn't interest me.
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Originally posted by garegin View PostWith Windows not only do I get the latest apps the second they come out, but they backport system software like .NET 4.5.1 all the way back to Vista, which came out seven years ago!
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Upstream software vendors are fully dependent on downstream distributions to package their stuff. It's the downstream distribution that decides on schedules, packaging details, and how to handle support. Often upstream vendors want much faster release cycles then the downstream distributions follow.
Realistic testing is extremely unreliable and next to impossible. Since the end-user can run a variety of different package versions together, and expects the software he runs to just work on any combination, the test matrix explodes. If upstream tests its version on distribution X release Y, then there's no guarantee that that's the precise combination of packages that the end user will eventually run. In fact, it is very unlikely that the end user will, since most distributions probably updated a number of libraries the package relies on by the time the package ends up being made available to the user. The fact that each package can be individually updated by the user, and each user can combine library versions, plug-ins and executables relatively freely, results in a high risk of something going wrong.
Since there are so many different distributions in so many different versions around, if upstream tries to build and test software for them it needs to do so for a large number of distributions, which is a massive effort.
The distributions are actually quite different in many ways. In fact, they are different in a lot of the most basic functionality. For example, the path where to put x86-64 libraries is different on Fedora and Debian derived systems..
Developing software for a number of distributions and versions is hard: if you want to do it, you need to actually install them, each one of them, manually, and then build your software for each.
Since most downstream distributions have strict licensing and trademark requirements (and rightly so), any kind of closed source software (or otherwise non-free) does not fit into this scheme at all.
Upstream vendors will provide binary installation of the software they are developing
Ultimately, I really don't give a f* f* as long as source is provided
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Originally posted by johnc View PostTo me it seems to add a lot of needless complication. I couldn't imagine trying to keep track of all of that myself. And I don't want to have ten versions of Firefox installed (again, unless I'm doing development).
For example, when installing your LiveCD to disk, you would simply copy the btrfs deltas. That's it. The files on the LiveCD and your disk would be identical, no need to wait half an hour for your package manager to install packages.
Installing a new package, runtime or, hell, trying a new distro would be as simple as copying a btrfs delta. Btrfs makes rollback/uninstallation trivial. It's a *huge* simplification to both end-users and developers, compared to the current mess of distro-specific packages.
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Originally posted by BlackStar View PostActually, it's a huge simplification compared to what we have now. Did you read his blog post?
For example, when installing your LiveCD to disk, you would simply copy the btrfs deltas. That's it. The files on the LiveCD and your disk would be identical, no need to wait half an hour for your package manager to install packages.
Installing a new package, runtime or, hell, trying a new distro would be as simple as copying a btrfs delta. Btrfs makes rollback/uninstallation trivial. It's a *huge* simplification to both end-users and developers, compared to the current mess of distro-specific packages.
If there was really a concern to make Linux better for end users, how about addressing the 3 million hours I wasted trying to figure out why Unity, GNOME, compiz, etc. are fundamentally broken messes that make even basic tasks annoyingly impossible?
When you actually take a sober look at the top 1,000 things that piss off USERS of Linux systems (not engineers, developers, system admins), you'll find the stuff that Lennart is talking about is completely unhelpful. Meanwhile he wants to heap on everybody this new filesystem paradigm that, yes, overly complicates things. It's like systemd for filesystems and package management.
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Originally posted by Awesomeness View PostYou apparently don't know that he works for Red Hat and therefore already builds his own distro.
Nobody from Debian, Arch, Mageia, etc. has ever been forced to accept code from Red Hat. It's just that those other distributors would then have to work on such technology on their own instead of freeloading Red Hat code which is far more work and probably less fun than flaming on mailing lists.
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Originally posted by johnc View PostI read every word of it and as I see it, it adds a large amount of universal complication to make easier very rare use cases, such as these:
I think I've installed from a LiveCD exactly three times in my life (all as separate machine builds). I can't say that the meager hour or two it takes to install from a CD is particularly onerous.
If there was really a concern to make Linux better for end users, how about addressing the 3 million hours I wasted trying to figure out why Unity, GNOME, compiz, etc. are fundamentally broken messes that make even basic tasks annoyingly impossible?
When you actually take a sober look at the top 1,000 things that piss off USERS of Linux systems (not engineers, developers, system admins), you'll find the stuff that Lennart is talking about is completely unhelpful. Meanwhile he wants to heap on everybody this new filesystem paradigm that, yes, overly complicates things. It's like systemd for filesystems and package management.
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