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  • Originally posted by moilami View Post
    The gender is not a factor in software developing skills
    No, but it is, unfortunately, a factor in how those skills are judged. There is a lot that goes into how peoples' skills are judged beyond those skills alone. Unfortunately, one of those things that leads to peoples' skills being judged lower than they objectively should is gender.

    It is also an issue with how motivated people are to contribute. If one group has, historically, been treated like they are less welcome, treated like they are less valued, treated like they are less a part of the community, or event actively discouraged from contributing, then they are going to be less likely to contribute then they would if only their skills were taken into account. Again, this is the case with women in the tech community (and many other communities).

    So in your ideal fantasy world, then no, none of this would be necessary. But this is not your ideal fantasy world, this is the real world, and in the real world there are a lot of issues holding people back besides their skills alone, and there has been a lot of damage done to the motivation of certain groups to participate that were no fault of their own.

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    • Originally posted by moilami View Post
      I can tell you that I earned voluntarily and without anyone directing or suggesting me to do so money for my toys when I was below school age by doing favors to neighbours.
      So even if we believe your story, you lived in the sort of community where you were on friendly terms with your neighbors, where the neighbors could afford to give you a fair amount of money for minor tasks, where your parents felt those tasks were not going to get you into trouble, where it was safe for a kid that age to wander around to random houses, and where your family had enough money that you were allowed to spend it on toys and other personal stuff rather than it being used to make ends meet. And despite all this you think you did this all by yourself with no advantages?

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      • Originally posted by grndzro View Post
        Ok you completely lost me. What is contradictory in what I typed?
        Go back and read my post then I pointed that out for you. I dont know why I'm bothering wasting my time but if you really need me to break it down for you further here goes.

        Originally posted by grndzro View Post
        One completely dominant distro is needed to get all the players focused. Ubuntu almost had it before they shoved Unity down our throats.
        You claim we need one dominant distro and call for Gnome to die. Yet you then complain that Ubuntu is shoving Unity down your throat what do you think would happen if there was only one distro? Why would they bother supporting more than one desktop? Wouldnt that just be fragmentation the other thing your arguing against?

        Originally posted by grndzro View Post
        Don't like how heavy it is? you can turn off desktop effects and slim it up.
        Originally posted by grndzro View Post
        Choice is a convienient excuse to stroke ego...it does nothing to help Linux.
        One minute your saying choice it good then you go on to say its bad.

        Originally posted by grndzro View Post
        There are no Pro's to a fragmented linux userbase....none.
        Again if thats the case then you should be fine with just using Unity right?

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        • Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
          No, but it is, unfortunately, a factor in how those skills are judged. There is a lot that goes into how peoples' skills are judged beyond those skills alone. Unfortunately, one of those things that leads to peoples' skills being judged lower than they objectively should is gender.

          It is also an issue with how motivated people are to contribute. If one group has, historically, been treated like they are less welcome, treated like they are less valued, treated like they are less a part of the community, or event actively discouraged from contributing, then they are going to be less likely to contribute then they would if only their skills were taken into account. Again, this is the case with women in the tech community (and many other communities).

          So in your ideal fantasy world, then no, none of this would be necessary. But this is not your ideal fantasy world, this is the real world, and in the real world there are a lot of issues holding people back besides their skills alone, and there has been a lot of damage done to the motivation of certain groups to participate that were no fault of their own.
          You are right. In fact, we've seen a lot of machismo, hidden or shown, in this very thread. Machismo is encoded into every human interaction related to tech, and I still remember that Ubuntu had in fact to code an anti sexual harassment policy, because it was exceedingly frequent for male developers to try to reach female developers and approach them sexually. We need to fight against that, and I'm not being ironic at all (even if the conclusion is ironic) when I say that it would be better for GNOME to become a giant OPW. We need a giant OPW a lot more than another desktop.

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          • Originally posted by Alejandro Nova View Post
            You are right. In fact, we've seen a lot of machismo, hidden or shown, in this very thread. Machismo is encoded into every human interaction related to tech, and I still remember that Ubuntu had in fact to code an anti sexual harassment policy, because it was exceedingly frequent for male developers to try to reach female developers and approach them sexually. We need to fight against that, and I'm not being ironic at all (even if the conclusion is ironic) when I say that it would be better for GNOME to become a giant OPW. We need a giant OPW a lot more than another desktop.
            so, you would solve sexism... by introducing... sexism? just turn supposed and non existing sides? no matter how OPW is presented, it only includes women

            sexual harassment has nothing to do with being valued as contributor or not and for sure it doesn't warrant special outreach. sorry, it happens everywhere.and to anyone. just as you have sore male characters who can't distinguish between signals, so you have sore female characters who can't take no for an answer. it's just the fact that one side screams louder and sooner, same as it is the fact that side dominating in numbers will dictate the flow and domination. just try getting job where you're only male in full female company and see it for your self

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            • Originally posted by Alejandro Nova View Post
              The logical conclusion: GNOME will cease to make software and will survive as an Outreach Program for Women. Which is not bad at all.
              Yeah, they could change the focus of their doing completely. I think that would be better, and then let someone begin to focus on Gnome.

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              • Originally posted by Alejandro Nova View Post
                it was exceedingly frequent for male developers to try to reach female developers and approach them sexually.
                You won't get that situation solved by delivering more victims to the offender, you have to boot out the offenders. Give them the finger and the women will come from alone.

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                • Originally posted by TheBlackCat View Post
                  So even if we believe your story... And despite all this you think you did this all by yourself with no advantages?
                  Originally posted by Alejandro Nova View Post
                  You are right. In fact, we've seen a lot of machismo, hidden or shown, in this very thread...
                  Black Cat, Alejandro, I admire your perseverance! Not that I believe for a second your interlocutors are permeable to an alternative point of view, but your articulation surely may provide insight to those lurking in the thread, who never thought about the issues you are rising, +1 from me!

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                  • Originally posted by quasipedia View Post
                    Black Cat, Alejandro, I admire your perseverance! Not that I believe for a second your interlocutors are permeable to an alternative point of view, but your articulation surely may provide insight to those lurking in the thread, who never thought about the issues you are rising, +1 from me!
                    Have you ever heard about trying to understand what people think and let them think what they want instead of trying to manipulate them to think what you want? It seems that is quite strange concept for you. Usually it takes some age to realize that everything is not so black & white and people should be respected as long as they don't try to steal your lollipop

                    Edit: (Purely intentionally made machismo and sexist comment

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                    • Originally posted by Alejandro Nova View Post
                      We need to fight against that, and I'm not being ironic at all (even if the conclusion is ironic) when I say that it would be better for GNOME to become a giant OPW. We need a giant OPW a lot more than another desktop.
                      I don't think that such a transformation would work.
                      In the unlikely event that the GNOME Foundation should decide to no longer be the administrative organistation for OPW it is more likely that some other organistation will take over. The Ada Foundation perhaps.

                      Also, GNOME, as in the project, is way too large and important to go without a supporting foundation.

                      Cheers,
                      _

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