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Linux Kernel Developers Fed Up With Ridiculous Bugs In Systemd

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  • Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post
    Regardless of who you were talking about, the fundamental principle still applies. As a project you can choose to exclude anything you want but as a individual noone should be allowed to dictate what other people do.
    You are the one suggesting that there are such people. The insinuation that I had anything to do with something like this is an ad hominem attack. While I might consider certain software to be junk, I do not believe in restricting choices. That is how Gentoo as a whole works.

    Originally posted by RahulSundaram View Post
    PS: I don't work for Red Hat and even if it happens there (I noticed you didn't single out any examples), that is no excuse for any open source project to behave as if letting other maintainers do what they want to do is "toleration". If it doesn't affect you, it isn't tolerating anything. Period.
    Your title suggests that you do work for Redhat and I am trying to end this discussion with a few quick responses to address attacks on my character. Giving you more things on which to nitpick would be counterproductive to that end. As for toleration, the project as a whole collectively tolerates packages many of us dislike provided they have maintainers. Stop trying to make it about me, as it certainly is not. If we as a group were intolerant of choices few of us liked, we would have had a vote on removing many packages a long time ago.

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    • Originally posted by Ericg View Post
      An old project won't be upgrading to systemd, so thats out of the question. So, just as I brought up in a previous thread, lets assume a new project thats currently under development needs to place a bit of flash storage on itself. I have a router sitting next to me that has 256Mb's of RAM and 32mb's of flash storage. So let's call 32mb a bare minimum for what you can find in newly manufactured flash. Frankly I'm shocked its not higher.

      If you are SO strapped for storage or size constraints that you are working off of 32mb's of storage... you probably won't be using systemd. Frankly at that size you have to be cutting and slashing as much of the kernel as you can. You are into highly specialized territory, and if you are -IN- that territory then you probably can roll your own init system, OR your entire process tree is like 3 processes top that you can just track yourself.

      I have a thumb drive sitting next to me about the size of my thumb nail...its got 4gigs of storage available to it. If you're limiting yourself to 32mb's of storage its either because you KNOW what you're doing, or you're a masochist.

      But lets assume you're right Ryao, just for sake of argument. Let's give you 4Mb's of storage space and lets be kind and say the kernel fits into 2mb's of that.. what the HELL are you doing with 2mb's? You can't write a secure web server in 2mb's of space, so thats out. 2mb's of storage you're into the "I'm coding in pure C and I need to start cherry-picking functions of the libraries I want to use, including them all in one header file with 1 C source file to handle everything and I need to make sure its written in as few lines as humanly possible." because 90% of the third party libraries on our systems that actually DO anything useful are prob more than 1mb in size, which even if the ONE you needed WAS 1mb in size that only gives you 1mb to play around with to do whatever it is you need to do. Talk about single purpose hardware, and I don't say that with affection.

      Also for the record, systemd depends upon the kernel and dbus and I think thats it. And as soon as kdbus lands it will be down to just "the kernel".
      You should look at OpenWRT. it runs on many devices shipping today that have small amounts of flash by today's standards. Anyway, there is always someone with a bigger/smaller system. It is a bad idea to put a number on what constitutes small when they are plenty examples of smaller things. The original UNIX lived on a 1.5MB hard drive and if you write tight code, there is plenty you can fit on that. For instance, you can fit an entire kernel, desktop environment and web browser on a floppy. It was done in 1999:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_VlI6IBEJ0
      Last edited by ryao; 04-03-2014, 10:25 PM.

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      • Originally posted by ryao View Post
        You are the one suggesting that there are such people. The insinuation that I had anything to do with something like this is an ad hominem attack. While I might consider certain software to be junk, I do not believe in restricting choices. That is how Gentoo as a whole works .
        There was zero adhominems in what I said. When I say "you", it is just a language form that can be substituted with "anyone involved" and not personally directed at you. I thought this was obvious in context. In any case, I don't care what you personally do. What I am objecting is use of the word "tolerating" in this discussion and making it clear to that letting maintainers maintain what they wish to work on is not consideration anything other than basic requirement and expected behavior in any open source project.

        "Giving you more things on which to nitpick would be counterproductive to that end."

        What is really counter-productive is deflecting the issue by naming a company uninvolved in the point I was making without bothering to specify any real examples. Even if said company indulged in such practises, my point still stands. The Phoronix title set by the forum is wrong (and Yes, I have complained to Micheal about it and he hasn't bothered to do anything about it yet).

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        • Originally posted by ryao View Post
          You should look at OpenWRT. it runs on many devices shipping today that have small amounts of flash by today's standards. Anyway, there is always someone with a bigger/smaller system. It is a bad idea to put a number on what constitutes small when they are plenty examples of smaller things. The original UNIX lived on a 1.5MB hard drive and if you write tight code, there is plenty you can fit on that. For instance, you can fit an entire kernel, desktop environment and web browser on a floppy. It was done in 1999:

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_VlI6IBEJ0
          Well, it is 2014 now and that example doesn't apply. If you are targeted such a micro niche, you are better off running busybox init or something custom. Hardly worth debating really.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ryao View Post
            You should look at OpenWRT. it runs on many devices shipping today that have small amounts of flash by today's standards. Anyway, there is always someone with a bigger/smaller system. It is a bad idea to put a number on what constitutes small when they are plenty examples of smaller things. The original UNIX lived on a 1.5MB hard drive and if you write tight code, there is plenty you can fit on that. For instance, you can fit an entire kernel, desktop environment and web browser on a floppy. It was done in 1999:

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_VlI6IBEJ0
            I DID look at OpenWRT, and I'm still trying to figure out how they got things so small. OpenWRT includes a webserver and a VPN if I'm not mistaken and both of those things should take up more than 4mb's of storage space on their own if they are conforming to the spec.. And yet their minimum specs (that i can find) are 4mb's of storage and 16mb's of RAM.

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            • Originally posted by Ericg View Post
              OpenWRT includes a webserver and a VPN if I'm not mistaken and both of those things should take up more than 4mb's of storage space on their own if they are conforming to the spec..
              bout those things can be done in 8kB of memory (cca 20kB for http if you need the whole spec)

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              • Originally posted by Ericg View Post
                I DID look at OpenWRT, and I'm still trying to figure out how they got things so small. OpenWRT includes a webserver and a VPN if I'm not mistaken and both of those things should take up more than 4mb's of storage space on their own if they are conforming to the spec.. And yet their minimum specs (that i can find) are 4mb's of storage and 16mb's of RAM.
                Because your estimates are significantly off.

                On the musl+tinyX11 system I'm running, libc is 716k, libssl is 372k, libjpeg is 416k, libX11 is 248k, libpng is 188k, libpcre is 148k, libgpm is 144k, libexpat is 136k, libz is 104k, and most of the X libs are less than 100k. (I'm using size based on du |sort -rn, which is very approximate.) libXm, libstdc++, and libcurl are the only libs over 2 megs, and libiconv and libcrypto are the only other libs over 1 meg.
                I have a static busybox that has almost everything enabled, weighing in at 808208 bytes. That includes busybox httpd and ftpd, along with bits of runit.
                And a static Xfbdev is smaller than that.
                dropbear, which is an SSH server and client, is ~140k.

                So I could have runit for init mangement, an X server, SSH, and a nearly complete Linux commandline environment in ~2 megs.

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                • I don't see why there is so much bashing against a great system. All my server farms now use systemd and it dramatically improved their reliability, up time and handling faults.

                  My life as a system admin has been made easier due to systemd.

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                  • Originally posted by garegin View Post
                    So use ZFS.
                    are you fucking kidding me? ZFS fucks everything up. Your kernel, your data, your job (if you are a sys admin dealing with ZFS), your mind and your life.

                    And ZFS is dead.
                    Last edited by endman; 04-05-2014, 06:07 AM.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by endman View Post
                      are you fucking kidding me? ZFS fucks everything up. Your kernel, your data, your job (if you are a sys admin dealing with ZFS), your mind and your life.

                      And ZFS is dead.
                      This is so hilariously outrageous that I don't know how to reply, but I'll try and do so anyway.

                      If ZFS 'fucks up' your 'mind and life' then you should perhaps consider legal action. A filesystem should not be able to ruin your life, and that's a severe defect that you must complain about.

                      As for 'dead'. Please see the OpenZFS project at http://open-zfs.org/wiki/Main_Page

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