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Miguel de Icaza Leaves Linux For Apple OS X

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  • Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
    It means this crap will die as it deserves. It's available since years on Linux and what mono fanboys have achieved are only few bloated, buggy and crappy apps. It's just ridiculous.
    Oh, I see and you have so much knowledge because you are a software developer with years of experience? Yeah, didn't thought so, too.

    And all those proofs you delivered, very nice. Meanwhile I'll start banshee and hear some music which means I literally can't hear you over the sound of how awesome mono is.

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    • Originally posted by Tweenk View Post
      Python

      If you want better performance you can always write a module in with Cython, Boost.Python, etc.

      Windows programs written in C# almost always rely on WPF / Windows Forms, so it's not really cross platform in the sense that Java is. You can't compile those programs with Mono.
      WindowsForms was ported to mono so a windowsforms app runs on mono just fine.

      Yes, python is a nice language but I've yet to find a good IDE for it.

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      • The Linux Desktop fails because there is no profitable service model for non-enterprise users.

        Selling open-source software by itself is redundant, obviously. Profit can only be made on something that is scarce*. OSS is considered non-scarce. This is another topic for another thread, but it is thought that intellectual property, copyrights, and patents introduce artifical scarcity* by limiting distribution, modification and reproduction (which IMHO is inefficient and detrimental).

        Red Hat's model thrives because they sell a service that satisfies an almost absolute need that the product naturally incurs on its users, and it incurs this not because Red Hat cripples the product, but because it is the natural consequence of using the product (or you could say the natural consequence of OSS).

        I'm not familiar with that sector so I can't comment much further. What makes them successful? If Red Hat is preferred over other alternatives, then despite the limitations of OSS, it still has a net advantage over other products/services. What is this advantage? Has Red Hat has found a way to leverage the benefits of FOSS in its favor? I know they protect their clients against patent trolls. Feel free to chime in.

        *Definitions, from Wiki:
        Goods (and services) that are scarce are called economic goods (or simply goods if their scarcity is presumed). Other goods are called free goods if they are desired but in such abundance that they are not scarce, such as air and seawater.

        Physical goods are likely to remain inherently scarce by definition. Also some non-physical goods are likely to remain scarce by design, examples include positional goods such as awards generated by honor systems, fame, and membership of elite social groups. These things are said to derive all or most of their value from their scarcity.
        Artificial scarcity describes the scarcity of items even though the technology and production capacity exists to create an abundance.

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        • Originally posted by Tweenk View Post
          Python

          If you want better performance you can always write a module in with Cython, Boost.Python, etc.

          Windows programs written in C# almost always rely on WPF / Windows Forms, so it's not really cross platform in the sense that Java is. You can't compile those programs with Mono.
          I'm glad you pointed that Python is more portable than C# but Boost.Python!? I mean: C++ is in real life as less portable as C# is, but by default C# offers more portable in the package: it can parse Xml, it can do reflection, web downloading or connect to a database. I mean basically what Python can do out of the box, isn't it so? Also, if you target Mono for Windows, and you make sure that you application really works on it, it will work with minimal changes most of the time to Linux. Pinta codebase shows this.

          One last inaccuracy: Windows Forms works on Mono fairly well. I mean the basic controls, not the animations that have flickering. So if you make a WinForms app that connects to a database it may work from scratch. There is one application that proves this: http://www.plasticscm.com/

          At last: Cython is portable that you don't need any platform dependent code? The tutorial asks to you to precompile your code upfront: http://docs.cython.org/src/userguide/tutorial.html The same is about Boost.Python, isn't it so? The Jars and MSIL assemblies don't require this either. If you need though a platform dependent code, for example to pick your lib.so from disk, this can be done by customizing a .xml that is read at runtime. This is done automatically by most libraries, so there is no issue in real life.

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          • Originally posted by Tweenk View Post
            Python

            If you want better performance you can always write a module in with Cython, Boost.Python, etc.

            Windows programs written in C# almost always rely on WPF / Windows Forms, so it's not really cross platform in the sense that Java is. You can't compile those programs with Mono.
            I just feel the need to point out here that saying that people using WPF makes C# not cross platform is like saying most people using C++ always rely upon Win32 so it's not really cross platform... All it means is Miguel and co really need to get their act together and write a mono implementation of WPF and you do have other things to write in including GTK# and Qyoto, as well as the upcoming Xwt and there at least was an implementation of WxWidgets, but just because something that is commonly used isn't cross platform doesn't make the language not cross platform.

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            • Originally posted by Detructor View Post
              Oh, I see and you have so much knowledge because you are a software developer with years of experience? Yeah, didn't thought so, too.

              And all those proofs you delivered, very nice. Meanwhile I'll start banshee and hear some music which means I literally can't hear you over the sound of how awesome mono is.
              Wow. Is banshee still the poster-app for C# in Linux. No wonder this bloated peice-of-shit-system will die... Anyway, everyone nowadays uses either iTunes or Spotify.

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              • Maybe Miguel have never been interested in technology...

                Maybe he just wants to stay near and support the biggest IT-bully of the year in hope to be able to bullying someone himself.

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                • Originally posted by stikonas View Post
                  The desktop was not fragmented before he himself started the GNOME project as an alternative to KDE...
                  Qt was proprietary at the time.

                  Are you saying you don't think the desktop needs a Free toolkit on which to build?

                  Originally posted by j2723 View Post
                  In my opinion, the Linux desktop wouldn't be as fragmented, weren't it for the Gnome shell and Unity.
                  Partially he is to blame.
                  Miguel had no involvement in GNOME for years before GNOME Shell and Unity happened. Why is he to blame for that? Is he also to blame for World War 4?

                  Originally posted by Mike Frett View Post
                  Seeing what you did to Gnome, good riddance and don't come back.
                  Founded it?

                  Originally posted by peppercats View Post
                  Not sure why he wasn't just kicked off in the first place.
                  Are you in charge of the committee that determines who is permitted to use Open Source, and who is banned?

                  Originally posted by Detructor View Post
                  does someone know what that means for Mono? As a cross-platform developer I hope that it doesn't influence Mono.
                  Xamarin aren't targeting Linux at all. Individual Xamarin employees continue to fix bugs in the stack.

                  The community is expected to fill in gaps it feels it needs (e.g. Gtk+3) and take care of packaging (e.g. for major distros).

                  I guess that makes me a major part of that.

                  Originally posted by LinuxID10T View Post
                  LOLWUT? From every modern benchmark I've ever seen Java gives C# butthurt in the speed department. I guess you don't like the massive amount of Java IDEs either. They are different, not inferior. To give you some credit though, I don't code in Java (C++ and lua all the way for me) but still, I think that criticism unnecessary and incorrect.
                  Java is a bit faster than Mono, at a cost of using an order of magnitude more RAM for even basic tasks, and being broadly useless for desktop apps.

                  Originally posted by randomizer View Post
                  Where else but the Microsoft website can you find Silverlight videos? I can't say I've come across many, if any at all. I don't know why anyone would use Silverlight for something like that anyway, there are better uses for it.
                  It was used for the Obama inauguration, way back when (where Moonlight worked), and for UK Parliament videos (where Moonlight worked).

                  It doesn't work, however, for Netflix. Which is all people care about. When people moan about Moonlight, what they're really saying is "Waaaah waaaah waaaah I can't use a proprietary DRM'd video service that I pay for, because the Moonlight developers have had to do every bit of monkeywork themselves, since the community never thought to pitch in. Waaaaaaaah"

                  Originally posted by nightmarex View Post
                  I really disliked the idea of mono, the way I disliked the idea of Wine. It made an excuse to not use Linux native tools or compilers. I thank him for his work and curse him as well. Wine and mono are both double edged swords and I understand the need if not loathe the result. Yeah I know, I use Wine when I must for games I "must" play... Wow I suck.
                  Mono is no less a "Linux native tools or compilers" than Python or Ruby is.

                  Originally posted by Tweenk View Post
                  Python

                  If you want better performance you can always write a module in with Cython, Boost.Python, etc.

                  Windows programs written in C# almost always rely on WPF / Windows Forms, so it's not really cross platform in the sense that Java is. You can't compile those programs with Mono.
                  Mono has had a WinForms implementation for a good decade now. WPF, you're right, is absent.

                  But have you considered Gtk+? It's cross-platform and has great tools in MonoDevelop, working fine on Windows and Mac when you develop on Linux. MonoDevelop 4 shows how good a Gtk+ app can look on non-Linux platforms.

                  Originally posted by Luke_Wolf View Post
                  All it means is Miguel and co really need to get their act together and write a mono implementation of WPF
                  Why should they? As this thread clearly demonstrates, it isn't worth their time investing millions of man-hours in major pieces of infrastructure which broadly speaking only benefit Linux.

                  Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
                  Oh, and I don't have to be a developer to judge mono crap. It's enough to try mono applications. You hear sound in banshee till it crashes, because it's huge, bloated and unstable mess. The same about other mono shit that's available on Linux. There are dozens of Qt/C++, C, Python applications available on Linux while there are only few mono applications. What's worse, those few applications are utter crap. What proofs do you want to confirm there are just a few mono apps on Linux? Everything's ok with you? You'll also hear sound in any other application, so does it mean everything is awesome? What a dumb. Like I pointed in another thread mono is anti-Linux and it's m$ crap.
                  I disproved the "Banshee is bloated" nonsense in 2009. Have a read here.

                  The problem is that it doesn't matter if your app is responsive and lightweight - a parade of morons will still shout from the rooftops about how bloated and slow it is, because they are bound by religion to say so, not by any commitment to facts or reality.

                  Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
                  One more thing. While there are only few mono applications available due to lack of interest in this shit, it seems there are just a few mono supporters "available" as well! Destructor, Ciplogic and Luke_Wolf and I bet they're from ximian, m$ or m$ friendly companies to lobby for mono.
                  Maybe most of them have better things to do than spend all day arguing with the stupidest people in the "Linux community"

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                  • Originally posted by Pawlerson View Post
                    Oh, and I don't have to be a developer to judge mono crap. It's enough to try mono applications. You hear sound in banshee till it crashes, because it's huge, bloated and unstable mess. The same about other mono shit that's available on Linux. There are dozens of Qt/C++, C, Python applications available on Linux while there are only few mono applications. What's worse, those few applications are utter crap. What proofs do you want to confirm there are just a few mono apps on Linux? Everything's ok with you? You'll also hear sound in any other application, so does it mean everything is awesome? What a dumb. Like I pointed in another thread mono is anti-Linux and it's m$ crap.
                    You are totally ignorant and you do not know what you are talking about.

                    You cannot judge a programming language and/or framework/virtual machine based on the apps that have been made with it. The apps' quality is based entirely on their programmers. And also, the fact that there are only a few mono apps means nothing at all about its quality. Mono in general is unattractive for Linux development because of patent fears/bad reputation and most pick alternatives like Python. This doesn't mean that Mono doesn't have its merits.

                    The best thing Mono brings to the table is the ability for experienced C# programmers on Windows to contribute to Linux. This is a nice thing. If you don't like it, then purge every trace of Mono from your system and never use it. No one is forcing you to use it. Stop spreading FUD though...

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                    • Originally posted by directhex View Post
                      Are you in charge of the committee that determines who is permitted to use Open Source, and who is banned?
                      Someone who cares about OSS should be, a Microsoft MVP shouldn't be part of a major OSS team.

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