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  • #91
    Anyone making any comments in this thread about population or energy should definitely watch this video before making any assertions of fact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOrvGDRLT7A

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    • #92
      Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
      Anyone making any comments in this thread about population or energy should definitely watch this video before making any assertions of fact: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOrvGDRLT7A
      the grow problem is only a problem for fossil fuel.

      the green energy do not have a know limit.
      Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

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      • #93
        Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
        the grow problem is only a problem for fossil fuel.

        the green energy do not have a know limit.
        All energy has limits. See The Kardashev Scale. The only technology we can presently demonstrate for "Green Energy" falls squarely within the Type I civilization category; and even then, not nearly as advanced as a fully developed Type I civilization. We might be able to conceive of more advanced technologies, but we can't predicate public policy on the idea that we will discover something that we haven't yet discovered, because discovery is not predictable. If it were predictable, then it wouldn't be discovery; it would be applying known methodology to known technology to produce predictable innovation results (such as Moore's Law and CPUs).

        To satisfy the kind of energy demand we're talking about through the entirety of the 21st century, we're talking about applying currently unknown methodology to unknown technology, which is a process that proceeds at an unpredictable pace. People have tried to predict it ("by the year 2000, everyone will have flying cars!") but usually we are much too optimistic when thinking about unknown methods and unknown technologies.

        Green Energy does not equate to Unlimited Energy. There is no "unlimited". This is exactly what Professor Bartlett was trying to communicate. Did you not watch the video?

        Steady, compounding growth in demand of resources (which is driven primarily by increase in population) is not sustainable under any finite model of energy, whether the means to harvest that energy comes from a renewable source or not.

        Here are some examples:

        Solar: We can "exhaust" our solar energy by building as many solar power cells as is feasible, either by exhausting the raw materials needed to build the cells (platinum, silicon, and other rare materials), or by completely covering the area that is practical to cover with solar cells (whether that's the surface of the Earth; satellites in orbit of Earth; or a Dyson sphere around the Sun, is a matter of how much you "believe" in the ability of future unknown technologies using unknown methods to come up with a way to implement these ideas.) Once we have reached one of these limits, our energy growth of solar will be exhausted. Due to the finite amount of resources on the planet that are available to build solar cells, and due to the human inability to exhaustively extract every last microgram of these resources, we would more than likely have to stop short of the theoretical maximum of completely covering our planet's atmosphere in solar cells in low earth orbit (with no thought of what that would do to our plant life or Vitamin D intake).

        Wind: We can "exhaust" our wind energy by building as many wind turbines as is feasible, either by exhausting the raw materials needed to build the turbines, or by completely covering the land mass of the earth with turbines, or stopping short of that due to populations' resistance to occupying certain areas (such as cities) with wind turbines. Due to the human condition of requiring space to live in, we would more than likely have to stop short of the theoretical maximum.

        Biofuels: We can "exhaust" our biofuel energy by building as many biofuel farms as is feasible, such as by completely covering the land mass of the earth with biofuel farms, or by stopping short of that due to food shortages or due to populations' resistance to occupying certain areas (such as cities). Due to the human condition of requiring food to eat, we would more than likely have to stop short of the theoretical maximum.

        Hydroelectric: We can "exhaust" our hydroelectric energy by building as many hydroelectric dams as is feasible, such as by damming up every moving body of water on the planet until the sum of the kinetic energy of all the moving water on the planet is completely converted into electricity. We would likely stop short of this long before we accomplish this goal, however, because a hydroelectric power plant requires a massive amount of raw materials to create, and because we would not be able to survive on this planet without the tides, because they contribute so fundamentally to the ecological balance, which in turn is crucial to food production.

        Fusion: This technology, to produce energy from fusing together different components of water, has not been proven to achieve the following goal: to produce more energy from the fusion itself than is required to separate the components of the water and to maintain the reaction itself. If you have to put more energy in (to separate and purify the constituent fuels and to maintain the reaction) than you receive out, then it's an energy loser. At this stage, fusion is basically in the same category as a Dyson Sphere: it's just an idea, with no actual implementation, because the methodology and the technology are both unknown (and thus unpredictable). This is why we have seen that fusion power appears to be at least a decade away, for something like 50 years. We always think we're only a decade away, but the goalpost keeps moving. This is because we do not fundamentally understand the physics behind it. We are dabbling in something fundamentally outside of our grasp (for the time being). It could be 10, 100, 1000 or 1000000 years before we discover the secret, if ever.

        If you think that green energy or renewable energy is not challenged by steady growth, then you still do not understand the arithmetic of the exponential function.

        "Unlimited" as a concept is essentially flawed: by saying unlimited, you assume infinite; but if you concede that the quantity is in fact finite, although quite extraordinarily large (such as the IPv6 address space, for example), then you must concede that there is the potential for exhaustion at some point. And given steady, exponential growth, that point of exhaustion is much, much, MUCH closer than you could possibly imagine. That's why we can't comprehend the exponential function (at least intuitively), and why it is important that we actually calculate out the numbers in order to see just how dangerous steady growth is.
        Last edited by allquixotic; 11-26-2011, 05:01 PM.

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        • #94
          USA + China f.cked us all all the time. They export their economic crisis to all of our countries, they export they pollution to all of us, and they didn't care too much!
          But soon oil will run out again, the price of oil will run up again, and American economy will collapse! They will attack Venezuela to save the price, but just for a while!
          After that China economy will collapse because of collapse of her biggest client - USA!
          And global warming will stop!
          ))
          Nice !!!

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
            All energy has limits.
            no this is just wrong because: the universe do not have Limits.

            and with green energy you can use the hole universe to make energy.

            Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
            raw materials needed to build the cells
            this is a lie no raw materials are needed for solar power plants.
            your knowledge is to small to make a point here.
            you are only a mathematical nerd but here you FAIL!
            Green energy is unlimited!
            because universe is unlimited and no RAW materials are needed.


            Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
            around the Sun
            your mental strength are weak you speak about THE SUN i speak about ALL SUNS

            can you count all SUNs? i can't!

            Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
            exhausting the raw materials needed to build the turbines
            another lie. no one need raw materials to build a turbine. every child can build one without raw materials.

            but you can't sure madhouse coming for you,

            Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
            completely covering the land mass of the earth with biofuel farms
            another bullshitbingo coming. with an alphakat biofuel plant you don't need any biofuel farms because it turns all garbage into diesel.

            Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
            a hydroelectric power plant requires a massive amount of raw materials to create
            no raw material are needet! and no dam are needet you can earn hydroelectric without a dam or raw material.
            Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
            Fusion: This technology, to produce energy from fusing together different components of water, has not been proven to achieve the following goal: to produce more energy from the fusion itself than is required to separate the components of the water and to maintain the reaction itself. If you have to put more energy in (to separate and purify the constituent fuels and to maintain the reaction) than you receive out, then it's an energy loser.
            super bullshit bingo madhouse coming. because the Tzar bomb prove the positive energy output!
            whatever there are people around already sell ready to use cold-fusion plants.

            but you still claim bullshit.
            Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
            If you think that green energy or renewable energy is not challenged by steady growth, then you still do not understand the arithmetic of the exponential function.
            no you are a pure joke! green energy means you use the hole universe as a energy source!

            and there is no know limit for the universe.
            Last edited by Qaridarium; 11-26-2011, 08:14 PM.
            Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

            Comment


            • #96
              Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
              no this is just wrong because: the universe do not have Limits.

              and with green energy you can use the hole universe to make energy.
              Wow; I think you're a little off your rocker here, bud.

              In case you didn't notice, we haven't been able to physically move a human being beyond our own moon.

              Aside from light emitted by our planet, the most matter we have managed to emit from our planet beyond our solar system includes basically the Voyager probe; that's it.

              You may be able to conceive of harnessing the "entire universe" for energy; that's all well and good. I can conceive it, too. But I can't begin to express to you, even in principle, the type of technology that would be needed to actually do that -- much less to actually go create a device that does it.

              The point is: if we don't make some hard choices, the human race won't survive the 21st century itself, let alone the far-flung future of being a multi-galactic empire.

              You're thinking in sci-fi land, bud. Keep dreaming. Back down here on earth, our means are a lot more limited. And "green energy" as we know it today is not an opium pill to ensure unlimited energy.

              BTW: Build me a wind turbine that isn't made out of steel or some other strong material (any possible manifestation of which is composed of raw materials, last time I checked) and produces an energy output greater than a pinwheel, and you should file for a patent.

              Maybe you can make a wind turbine out of water? Or air? How about carbon dioxide?
              Last edited by allquixotic; 11-26-2011, 08:33 PM.

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              • #97
                BTW:

                Originally posted by Qaridarium View Post
                your mental strength are weak you speak about THE SUN i speak about ALL SUNS

                can you count all SUNs? i can't!
                No, I can't count all the stars. But I can't get there to utilize its energy, either.

                Hell, I can't even get to the nearest star that isn't our sun. It would take hundreds of years with conventional propulsion technologies.

                Are you Zephram Cochrane? Can you invent a warp drive?

                If no, then shut up. You're living in a Sci-Fi dream world.

                We can't solve our problems today with magical thinking of hyper-advanced technology in the future. And the problem is, there won't be a future for the human race until we solve our problems today. So it's not like we can just wait a few thousand years and then go do your fantastical star-gallavanting then. If we do absolutely nothing, we will inevitably destroy ourselves. We have to act to actively combat what is in the process of destroying the planet in short order. Such as depletion of fossil fuels and arable land.

                Taken as a thermodynamic system, our solar system can be seen metaphorically like a battery powering a light bulb in the wilderness of Siberia. As the battery drains, the lightbulb shines, and radiates its heat out into the environment around it. It has no way to go get that energy back from the environment, because any activity that would try to go harvest that energy would consume more energy in the harvesting process than it would recoup.

                To continue the metaphor, the only way for the battery to sustain itself indefinitely would be for someone to get in a vehicle and transport the battery to somewhere where there's more energy in a concentrated area, such as another battery (another sun) or an electrical outlet (a black hole). So while it is theoretically possible for us to do that, right now, if the universe is the country of Russia, we have transportation technology approximately equivalent to the speed of a slug. Getting out of the wilderness and to a city at that speed would take an unacceptably long time, because our 9V battery can only power the light bulb for a few hours. Therein lies the problem.
                Last edited by allquixotic; 11-26-2011, 08:49 PM.

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                • #98
                  whatever there are people around already sell ready to use cold-fusion plants.
                  The fact that people are always ready to take money from foolish rich men is not a issue.

                  The first issue is if it is possible to have a cold-fusion plant that can produce net output of energy.
                  The second issue is if it is possible to have a cold-fusion plant that can produce net output of energy in a economical manner.
                  The second issue is dependent on the first issue. And the first issue has yet to be addressed in a meaningful way.

                  So, no, it's not going to happen any time soon. The chances of it happening in our lifetime is very small. And what is more: the majority of resources going currently into the research of cold fusion plants is being wasted on bureaucracies and corruption... which is the par for the course any time mentions 'green energy technology'.

                  another lie. no one need raw materials to build a turbine. every child can build one without raw materials.
                  Go out and build a turbine for yourself and then see if you can get it to power something as simple as a laptop or refrigerator, then get back to us. You'll see that it is NOT a solved problem and is probably never going to be a useful solution.

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by allquixotic View Post
                    Wow; I think you're a little off your rocker here, bud.

                    In case you didn't notice, we haven't been able to physically move a human being beyond our own moon.

                    Aside from light emitted by our planet, the most matter we have managed to emit from our planet beyond our solar system includes basically the Voyager probe; that's it.

                    You may be able to conceive of harnessing the "entire universe" for energy; that's all well and good. I can conceive it, too. But I can't begin to express to you, even in principle, the type of technology that would be needed to actually do that -- much less to actually go create a device that does it.

                    The point is: if we don't make some hard choices, the human race won't survive the 21st century itself, let alone the far-flung future of being a multi-galactic empire.

                    You're thinking in sci-fi land, bud. Keep dreaming. Back down here on earth, our means are a lot more limited. And "green energy" as we know it today is not an opium pill to ensure unlimited energy.

                    BTW: Build me a wind turbine that isn't made out of steel or some other strong material (any possible manifestation of which is composed of raw materials, last time I checked) and produces an energy output greater than a pinwheel, and you should file for a patent.

                    Maybe you can make a wind turbine out of water? Or air? How about carbon dioxide?
                    for your person your words a serious but for me i just wondering about your lag on knowledge.

                    "Maybe you can make a wind turbine out of water?"
                    sure i can. but then the operating temperature is -1C maximum.
                    if you use paper and water frozen you get a extremely strong material.
                    also you can use water to make wind if there is no wind. "down-draft-tower"

                    "Or air?"
                    sure you can do the same with air but then the operating temperature is -160C maximum.
                    also you can use air to make a tower for your up-draft tornado power plant

                    "How about carbon dioxide?"
                    the best way to use carbon dioxide is to let plants grow

                    "BTW: Build me a wind turbine that isn't made out of steel or some other strong material (any possible manifestation of which is composed of raw materials, last time I checked) and produces an energy output greater than a pinwheel, and you should file for a patent."

                    you already lost this because you can use hemp+epoxied also carbon fiber wind turbines outperforms Steel.

                    and you only need "strong material" if you go high speed or very big ones.

                    if you go low-speed and tiny ones you don't have a problem with materials.

                    "You're thinking in sci-fi land, bud. Keep dreaming. Back down here on earth, our means are a lot more limited. And "green energy" as we know it today is not an opium pill to ensure unlimited energy."

                    i do not life in sci-fi green energy can outperform fossil fuel in any kind.
                    green energy also can outperform nuclear power.
                    also here on earth if you limit the power output to the earth the power output maximum here on earth is still not know.

                    "You may be able to conceive of harnessing the "entire universe" for energy; that's all well and good. I can conceive it, too. But I can't begin to express to you, even in principle, the type of technology that would be needed to actually do that -- much less to actually go create a device that does it."

                    its more easy as you may think. a simple questions answers this: do solar power plants make energy in the night? the answer is YES!!!! because why? one answer are: the stars.

                    "In case you didn't notice, we haven't been able to physically move a human being beyond our own moon."

                    in fact we do not have to physically move a human to earn energy.

                    but you try to chance the tropic into bullshit to prove your nonsense.

                    "Wow; I think you're a little off your rocker here, bud."

                    not really its just your limitation of imagination.
                    Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by drag View Post
                      The fact that people are always ready to take money from foolish rich men is not a issue.
                      The first issue is if it is possible to have a cold-fusion plant that can produce net output of energy.
                      The second issue is if it is possible to have a cold-fusion plant that can produce net output of energy in a economical manner.
                      The second issue is dependent on the first issue. And the first issue has yet to be addressed in a meaningful way.
                      So, no, it's not going to happen any time soon. The chances of it happening in our lifetime is very small. And what is more: the majority of resources going currently into the research of cold fusion plants is being wasted on bureaucracies and corruption... which is the par for the course any time mentions 'green energy technology'.
                      the customer already pay engineering to diminish the power plant and have accepted it

                      Originally posted by drag View Post
                      Go out and build a turbine for yourself and then see if you can get it to power something as simple as a laptop or refrigerator, then get back to us. You'll see that it is NOT a solved problem and is probably never going to be a useful solution.
                      you just fail to understand the word : "parallelization" i only must build the tiniest one and the rest is just a point of parallelization.

                      this means you already lost.

                      the better question is why not build a refrigerator with a lower energy finger print
                      i can do it i use a heat recovery air fan system plus a water adiabatic cooling solution !
                      this means i only need 5-10 watt for a full size refrigerator.
                      Phantom circuit Sequence Reducer Dyslexia

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