Is Linux losing popularity?!

[Panix]

Now, before you remark, you should be well aware I've been in the industry developing software for both Windows AND Linux, from the device driver level all the way to end-user applications- for over two and a half decades now. I've got friends and former business associates that include people like Benjamin Lipchak and Nick Haemel (Two of the authors of the OpenGL SuperBible- and my boss and the team lead for when I worked at AMD...) and have done things ranging from industrial I/O device drivers, to scanners, to ethernet drivers, to OpenGL driver work- even on AMD's proprietary driver on the Windows side of things. Some of it on Windows. Much of it on Linux. Some of it free like Utah-GLX. Some of it for-pay like NetEffect's 10Gbit iWarp Ethernet channel adapters or the Windows OpenGL work I was doing to maybe get a shot at helping the Linux side of things at AMD.

Yes, there are still issues. But NOTHING of your remarks actually talks to the current reality of things in the large.

Driver support's more an issue of companies either realizing that they need to properly support us fully (Broadcom, AMD, etc...) or at least make drivers available for people out of their own driver efforts (NVidia, Imagination Technologies(yes...), etc...)- and the stuff that doesn't work is because the companies that make the stuff haven't figured it out yet.

That's impressive what you've done but that doesn't apply here. I only go by EXPERIENCE. Also, whatever you've done is fine but the experience of others suggests something contrary. Do people not read forums?!? Go to any forum, Ubuntu or any Linux-based ones, and you read of hardware not working. Some people know what they're doing, too, and have tried several tasks trying to get hardware to work.

But, regardless of that, I think HP has the worst hardware even in Windows. This is my third HP printer trying to use specifically for the scanner and I have had failure even in Windows. So, I really don't care about opensource anymore because it's only the most pathetic companies entertaining it. Their products are so horrible, they are trying to get an edge, I guess. HP products are among the worst and their laptops also have a reputation for being garbage. The HP software has remained awful. So, you are right in the respect that some of these companies even have ridiculous software and general operation in Windows.

But, as far as drivers go, you must not install drivers often because drivers installs in Windows is often horrible. The Linux install is usually better but only if you have experience. The noob will be lost. Fortunately, there's a free support group for that - forums.

[alexan]

How many driver Microsoft did produce?

Anyone experienced the "quality" of microsoft's video driver before install the official one?
The only thing Microsoft does.. is bring work made by other companies (the .dll+.inf they impose) and pack in the OS. In the Microsoft's OS there's much less usable stuff than you find in Linux Ubuntu.

Linux can handle a much larger database driver can handle it better, and allow you to use your hardware with your favorite software (windows instead often forces you to use the program on the CD driver).

So, why Linux can't handle well the latest driver?

Microsoft has nothing to do with this, the problem is the hardware manufacturer who do not respect the wishes of their clients: Linux users. Taking money form Linux community of user and spend it in .dll.


Windows and Linux community should stop to feed such companies: there's no gain to support those who don't give you choices.

Global market share is 50% with Windows XP. And Microsoft did choose to not give them DX10+ (latest multimedia technologies) or html5 (they need chrome/opera/firefox for this).
is the right of these people to upgrade their (paid) PC with the latest innovations possible. Free to charge (since they already paid their pc)

[Svartalf]

IT IS EASIER BECAUSE THE HARDWARE IS *DESIGNED* with Windows in mind. That's the whole problem. Trying to get a basic multi-function printer working in Linux is a continuous headache.

Keep believing that. Having done quite a few device driver projects in my day, there's no "designed with Windows in mind" save for things like WinModems, WinPrinters, etc. Most of the devices are just designed- and they ameliorate the problems in their silicon with device driver jiggery-pokery. Seriously.

As for getting multi-function printers to work...I believe that Epson's do a pretty good job on Linux (I happen to HAVE one that works well on the scanner and the printer...) and Brother's got some decent support. At the enterprise level, pretty much all of the multi-function stuff plays nicely with Linux (I'm doing it right now at my shiny new day-job...).

Even the HP printers don't work unless they're laser printers and all you need is print-outs.

REALLY? I guess that HP PhotoSmart 1218 I've had and have been using on Linux for YEARS is a figment of my imagination then. Not a Laer Printer. Not just print-outs. Try again, please.

I'm not even going to discuss wireless, video cards, or any other hardware that causes problems. That's a long list and another ball game. Basically, saying 'it's not a problem in Linux' is either ignoring the problem or lying. The issue is these companies and their hardware are designed to operate in Windows, period. Money talks and people are greedy.

Broadcom devices are a problem in WINDOWS- even the wireline devices.

Video card issues tend to be from the proprietary drivers and a lack of understanding on some aspect of how Linux ticks. Seriously.

Most of the other "problem" hardware for Linux is that under Windows as well from personal and professional experience- and if you had an issue with it on Linux at this point in time it's probably a questionable piece of hardware, and in some cases not even supported under Windows in this day and age or if it is, it won't be in a few years in the future.

Now, before you remark, you should be well aware I've been in the industry developing software for both Windows AND Linux, from the device driver level all the way to end-user applications- for over two and a half decades now. I've got friends and former business associates that include people like Benjamin Lipchak and Nick Haemel (Two of the authors of the OpenGL SuperBible- and my boss and the team lead for when I worked at AMD...) and have done things ranging from industrial I/O device drivers, to scanners, to ethernet drivers, to OpenGL driver work- even on AMD's proprietary driver on the Windows side of things. Some of it on Windows. Much of it on Linux. Some of it free like Utah-GLX. Some of it for-pay like NetEffect's 10Gbit iWarp Ethernet channel adapters or the Windows OpenGL work I was doing to maybe get a shot at helping the Linux side of things at AMD.

Yes, there are still issues. But NOTHING of your remarks actually talks to the current reality of things in the large.

Driver support's more an issue of companies either realizing that they need to properly support us fully (Broadcom, AMD, etc...) or at least make drivers available for people out of their own driver efforts (NVidia, Imagination Technologies(yes...), etc...)- and the stuff that doesn't work is because the companies that make the stuff haven't figured it out yet.

[deanjo]

IT IS EASIER BECAUSE THE HARDWARE IS *DESIGNED* with Windows in mind. That's the whole problem. Trying to get a basic multi-function printer working in Linux is a continuous headache.

I've actually had really good luck with Epson and believe it or not Brother MFC's in linux.

[Panix]

Heh...

This is more along the lines of knowing what's good and bad hardware-wise, and in at least some of the times it overlaps on Windows and Linux and the Windows crowd doesn't realize it and accepts the problems.

Many of the printers that are an "issue" under Linux were printers that you just simply didn't want, even on Windows. Same goes for webcams, scanners, WiFi, Ethernet, etc.

As always, many need to do their homework on this stuff- and "Windows" doesn't really remove it, even though many believe it does and it's "easier".

IT IS EASIER BECAUSE THE HARDWARE IS *DESIGNED* with Windows in mind. That's the whole problem. Trying to get a basic multi-function printer working in Linux is a continuous headache.

Even the HP printers don't work unless they're laser printers and all you need is print-outs.

I'm not even going to discuss wireless, video cards, or any other hardware that causes problems. That's a long list and another ball game. Basically, saying 'it's not a problem in Linux' is either ignoring the problem or lying. The issue is these companies and their hardware are designed to operate in Windows, period. Money talks and people are greedy.

[Nevertime]

I've looked and looked and this is what I found.

The term "linux server" is showing the exact same decline as "linux". I can't imagine servers are all switching to windows.

"ubuntu server" however is increasing well.

"ubuntu broadcom" is relatively stable (a minor dip in 2009) so, ignoring variations in broadcom popularity, this may indicate a stable flow of new people trying linux.

"osx" is declining at a rate much much faster than "ubuntu"

Other weak conclusions discovered by google trends include....
"Windows crashes" seem to have increased since the release of windows7
as have "alien abduction". Whiles windows7 seems to have also virtually cured us of "recession".
Also lets not overlook the massive reduction of people who think "linux sucks".
"Kittens" may be steadily losing their appeal but perhaps they're cheered up by the sudden lake of interest in the arch rivals the "puppys" starting from late 2008, a tread sadly followed closely by "puppy linux".

In the end its as I always predicted... We "love" more, "hate" about the same and "murder" less and less of our ever decreasing number of "friends".

[Svartalf]

Linux being "cheaper" really depends on the competence of the people administrating it and it offering solutions to a situation that are found in the other OS arena. While the initial cost may be cheaper it can quickly escalate into a "money hungry " setup under certain circumstances.

Heh...

This is more along the lines of knowing what's good and bad hardware-wise, and in at least some of the times it overlaps on Windows and Linux and the Windows crowd doesn't realize it and accepts the problems.

Many of the printers that are an "issue" under Linux were printers that you just simply didn't want, even on Windows. Same goes for webcams, scanners, WiFi, Ethernet, etc.

From personal experience, you didn't WANT Broadcom parts. They caused more issues, even under Windows Server, for Dell and HP than you could shake a stick at. Why did they go with them? Because the parts were offered cheap and the bean counters were more in charge over at those two OEMs until recently. One of the more common power-user plays, even under Windows was to order an Intel or Atheros G/N mini-PCI/mini-Express card and rip the Broadcom part out on a Laptop after purchasing the machine. WiFi problems go bye-bye.

And the list goes on. The main issue with many of these things is that unless you're a Linux user or can get your hands on one that'll help you, you're on an uphill road to find out what is/isn't good. Buying stuff labeled "Designed for Windows" won't help you much on the Windows side either- there's this mixed bag on the Windows side where the drivers kind of hide the bad stuff often. As always, many need to do their homework on this stuff- and "Windows" doesn't really remove it, even though many believe it does and it's "easier".

[deanjo]

The case is that the use is low and that developers are concentrating on the WRONG THINGS such as making desktops look pretty and cosmetics.

Well like it or not it is the "bells and whistles" that do end up getting desktop users.

WHY NOT FIX BUGS AND WORK TOWARDS BETTER HARDWARE COMPATIBILITY?!?

This is where I would like to see a lot of work being done as well. Ya "linux supports the most hardware" lines that we have all heard throughout the years should be followed with a huge asterdisk. While it may have a huge data base of hardware the term "supported" is applied to hardware that has very minimal support of it's capabilities and features. If a product does have a feature and it can be used in linux all to often you have to revert to sticking some kernel parameters somewhere in the system in some varying startup script that varies from distro to distro. I realize that a lot of these capabilities are hidden from opensource developers from the manufacturers but never the less it is still discouraging to see for example a $100 - $300 sound card have the same feature set as a $5 sound card, same goes with specialty cards such as TV tuners and such. Quite simply there is too much having to fuck around with kernel params to get them functioning as expected.

Lets face it a lot of the "supported" hardware that linux has it geared towards networking or is for product that is long gone. There is a shitload of ISA hardware for example in the kernel and you haven't been able to buy a board that has had ISA slots for many many years.

Another issue is that a lot of the hardware out there licenses it's features from other companies such as Dolby Live, DTS Connect, etc etc and I can't see that improving anytime soon.

There's network managers that are still complained about on forums which has occurred for over 10 yrs. There's video card support that is still slow as mollasses. There's hardware (especially printers) that has little support in Linux.

Printers (and scanners) are actually one area where I think linux does a decent job at. With the exception of Canon printers pretty much every other manufacturer has support. HP, Epson, Lexmark all have linux drivers for their products

I think the popularity will stay low until these issues get dealt with.

You are right there. The average user just wants their product to work as advertised and the thought of them losing capabilities scares them off.

MS doesn't really have to worry until it happens. However, there are inroads in some sectors and these are all due to economics/finances. People put up with things if the budget is stretched and Linux may be, for the most part, a cheaper alternative than a MS contract.

Linux being "cheaper" really depends on the competence of the people administrating it and it offering solutions to a situation that are found in the other OS arena. While the initial cost may be cheaper it can quickly escalate into a "money hungry " setup under certain circumstances.

[Panix]

It's kind of redundant when the usage is so low. People on here were arguing over the 1% allegation saying it's 5% or 10% or other ridiculous, redundant arguments.

The case is that the use is low and that developers are concentrating on the WRONG THINGS such as making desktops look pretty and cosmetics.

WHY NOT FIX BUGS AND WORK TOWARDS BETTER HARDWARE COMPATIBILITY?!?

There's network managers that are still complained about on forums which has occurred for over 10 yrs. There's video card support that is still slow as mollasses. There's hardware (especially printers) that has little support in Linux.

I think the popularity will stay low until these issues get dealt with.

MS doesn't really have to worry until it happens. However, there are inroads in some sectors and these are all due to economics/finances. People put up with things if the budget is stretched and Linux may be, for the most part, a cheaper alternative than a MS contract.

[korpenkraxar]

Now she is happy again. So at least thats +1 user to the linux market.

Yeah, but still, 1 sale for Microsoft, 0 for Canonical