Bcachefs Fixes Pull Once Again Frustrates Linus Torvalds - Two Choices Offered

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  • flower
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2018
    • 429

    #81
    Originally posted by justinkb View Post
    Let me just say I completely agree with Linus' point of view. But putting someone on full blast publicly isn't likely to be very productive to the working relationship. Linus could and should have conveyed the same message privately. Guess they are both a bit socially challenged in different ways.
    i agree with your statement but we just don't know what they have discussed privately. because it is private.

    anyway i really hope they find a way to continue working together. would be really sad for linux to loose a talented dev after decades of good work (not just bcachefs).

    and i honestly think linux desperately needs a good in-kernel cow fs. btrfs just doesn't fill that hole.

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    • szymon_g
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 410

      #82
      Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post
      I do think a lot of these issues would be, just not an issue if kent would support DKMS for testing stuff. Kent has stated multiple times to not use DKMS for bcachefs, however it seems like a way better idea to ship things like this as a DKMS and then wait for the next RC or even release schedule.
      has he ever stated why he doesn't use it?

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      • mdedetrich
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2019
        • 2551

        #83
        Originally posted by Quackdoc View Post
        I do think a lot of these issues would be, just not an issue if kent would support DKMS for testing stuff. Kent has stated multiple times to not use DKMS for bcachefs, however it seems like a way better idea to ship things like this as a DKMS and then wait for the next RC or even release schedule.
        Is this even possible? Wouldn't' the entire filesystem need to be shipped as a dkms module and not just hotfixes/patches?

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        • nado
          Phoronix Member
          • Apr 2021
          • 78

          #84
          Originally posted by erniv2 View Post

          So you telling me i can create my own OS right now, when i pull the git linux sourceee now and declare thats now erniv2nux, thats my own linux thing?
          Yes. Just look up whatever open source license a project uses and follow that.

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          • Alexmitter
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2019
            • 1148

            #85
            Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post

            Kent is not a "student", he is one of the oldest Linux kernel developers and has been working on it for decades.
            Doesn't stop him acting like a bratty 9 year old.

            Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
            has an enourmous amount of experience and what he is saying has merit
            Yet he pushes code that didn't even work with the damn automated linux build bot on all architectures. If hes that good, he would not make absolute beginner mistakes.

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            • stormcrow
              Senior Member
              • Jul 2017
              • 1524

              #86
              Originally posted by xhustler View Post

              I wholly agree.

              The teacher has patiently taken time to teach the clearly bright but ill mannered student how to fix their homework and some tricks of the trade. The student continually refuses to learn the lessons and instead boasts about how skilled he is. The teacher again attempts to get the student to learn the basics. Rather than learn the lessons, the student harps on about how he is more skilled than the teacher and how he has a rich new daddy.

              To maintain order in the class, the teacher is left with no choice but to kick the rude, petulant, know it all out of the class.
              I've had interactions with Overstreet in other contexts outside of the LKML. The one thing that repeatedly strikes me is just how much he keeps doubling down on rationalizing his unacceptable behavior regardless of the authority that asks him to tone down his um... 'enthusiasm and passion'. (his words)

              He has no concept of social boundaries and nuance nor can he read a room. Linus is more than likely going to back out the FS code because I've never seen Overstreet "take the hint" and tone down his overly aggressive attitude anywhere I've come across him.

              It's not that others don't screw up, nor is it about his skill or knowledge level. None of that is anything special given the context. All the primary maintainers are highly skilled or they wouldn't be there. It's that Overstreet doesn't play as a team member and won't change even if he gets slammed with a cluex4. Overstreet has a very hard life lesson coming, something I know from experience.
              Last edited by stormcrow; 06 October 2024, 08:52 AM.

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              • CommunityMember
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2019
                • 1381

                #87
                Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                Wouldn't' the entire filesystem need to be shipped as a dkms module
                Yes, just like OpenZFS (or the nvidia binary GPU driver, to use another example).

                And yes, it does (typically) require some effort if the kernel interfaces change over time and you want to support all the kernel variants, but we have proof by example that it is possible if someone wants to do it.

                Kent presumably does not want to do that work, and no one else has stepped up to do that work.

                Comment

                • mdedetrich
                  Senior Member
                  • Nov 2019
                  • 2551

                  #88
                  Originally posted by CommunityMember View Post

                  Yes, just like OpenZFS (or the nvidia binary GPU driver, to use another example).

                  And yes, it does (typically) require some effort if the kernel interfaces change over time and you want to support all the kernel variants, but we have proof by example that it is possible if someone wants to do it.

                  Kent presumably does not want to do that work, and no one else has stepped up to do that work.
                  Well rightly so, because at least if you subscribe to Linus's own mantra that code should ideally be upstreamed into the tree (which is what he said in other contexts) then bcachefs being in the tree and not a module is how it should be.

                  If openzfs had a compatible GPL 2 license it would be in the tree ages ago, the only reason its not there is because of a liecnse technicality. The nvidia blob is proprietrary so that doesn't really need any explanation. Linus does not like out of tree modules/drivers and he has shit on openzfs/nvidia many times because of that.

                  Comment

                  • Alexmitter
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2019
                    • 1148

                    #89
                    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post

                    Compared to the curernt in tree kernel filesystems it is
                    No its not, it currently does not even remotely compare to btrfs yet alone even ext4.



                    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                    Which is the same reason why Kent is getting clients who formerly used btrfs and are sick of using it because of the stability issues (as one guy put it, he can only mount a btrfs in read only because its breaking all of the time). /s

                    Like I don't think you realize, but the reason why bcache even exists is because so many people are having issues with btrfs (yes even right now).
                    Yes yes btrfs is terrible, everyone is constantly losing data and a puppy dies every time someone formats his partition as btrfs. And yet its used from datacenters to some of the most popular workstation distros and people are not having issues. The "zfs is so good and everything else sucks, bcachefs be our only savior" idiocy is getting out of hand. Its literally at the level of kpop fan behavior.

                    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                    He is literally being funded by people that are burned by btrfs issues.
                    Hes mainly founded by people, not even a single major consumer of Linux finances his work. Its all zfs fanboys on patreon, kent himself surely knows what a joke that is.

                    At the end it does not matter, btrfs is a great, battle tested cow filesystem which won't eat your data as long as you follow the manual and if that does not satisfy you there is always ext4. This is why either of those are the standard in nearly every distro. If bcachefs ever surpasses either of those in capability then surely its right if distros switch to it but until then stop praising code that hasn't even be written yet by a eccentric child.

                    Comment

                    • Raka555
                      Junior Member
                      • Nov 2018
                      • 682

                      #90
                      Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post

                      Maybe people should understand that Kent isn't some miracle kid and bcachefs isn't some miracle FS.
                      Hes a egoistic one man show who build a filesystem ontop of the existing bcache code whos main feature is "at least not btrfs" to those who still are unable to accept that btrfs has its struggles in the beginning but is state now a rock solid FS for all the features advertised as rock solid.

                      No one wants to axe bcachefs, it won't die just because it again has to live outside mainline. It just means that Kent will be able to do whatever he wants. No testing, direct merging, directly pushing his trash out the door. And Linus can go back to what he does well, steer the kernel for excellence.
                      btrfs is not rock solid. I recently lost my cache drive, which was btrfs, on an Unraid server, due to some sort of corruption. I rather stick to ext4, which I have used trouble free for decades. I had my love affair with zfs, but it is also over now.

                      I am interested in bcachefs and would be sad to see it getting booted out of the kernel.

                      But if it he gets kicked because he can't adapt or won't adapt, so be it.
                      Last edited by Raka555; 06 October 2024, 09:17 AM.

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