Bcachefs Fixes Pull Once Again Frustrates Linus Torvalds - Two Choices Offered

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  • stormcrow
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2017
    • 1514

    #91
    Originally posted by jacob View Post

    To be fair, FAT-12 was clever. As a filesystem designed for floppies, with an initial capacity of 180K IIRC, and where 99.99% of all files were only a few kilobytes in size, it was space-efficient and reasonably performant. Remember, this was an era where every CPU cycle counted and dumb algorithms handling trivial cases were more efficient than advanced algorithms and data structures capable of dealing with stuff that was waaaaay beyond the hardware's capabilities.
    As someone that was around at the time and knows how FAT* works, it wasn't clever even in the day. The most I'll give it is: "it worked... most of the time". Most people that could program computers in that era could do the same thing and often did, often arguably better. We had to in order to get the most out of the limited available resources and mechanical timings. In fact, there were plenty of other software that created custom physical and logical disk layouts to minimize lengthy access times for mechanical storage that catered to the quirks of the hardware.

    (*) FAT12, 16, 32 & vFAT, exFAT are all basically just extensions of the version that came before

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    • NobodyXu
      Senior Member
      • Jun 2021
      • 815

      #92
      Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
      io-uring only helps if the filesystem is in the kernel, not in userspace. Its intended for clients (i.e. users) of filesystems.
      it is definitely possible to use io-uring to speedup fus implementation itself, fuse is implemented using /dev/fuse, the fuse implementation simply opens it and reads/writes it.

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      • mdedetrich
        Senior Member
        • Nov 2019
        • 2538

        #93
        Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post


        Yes yes btrfs is terrible, everyone is constantly losing data and a puppy dies every time someone formats his partition as btrfs. And yet its used from datacenters to some of the most popular workstation distros and people are not having issues. The "zfs is so good and everything else sucks, bcachefs be our only savior" idiocy is getting out of hand. Its literally at the level of kpop fan behavior.
        Datacenters only use btrfs in one setup which is RAID-10, and that is the most trivial setup for a filesystem

        Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post
        Hes mainly founded by people, not even a single major consumer of Linux finances his work. Its all zfs fanboys on patreon, kent himself surely knows what a joke that is.
        This is wrong, he used to work at Datera Inc which is an enterprise that specializes in data storage and he has many clients from there

        Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post
        At the end it does not matter, btrfs is a great, battle tested cow filesystem which won't eat your data as long as you follow the manual and if that does not satisfy you there is always ext4. This is why either of those are the standard in nearly every distro. If bcachefs ever surpasses either of those in capability then surely its right if distros switch to it but until then stop praising code that hasn't even be written yet by a eccentric child.
        btrfs is broken when it comes to RAID 5/6, which is something that it even now warns you when you try to create the filesystem (they only added the warning a couple of years ago).

        Which means I cannot use btrfs because it has a write hole, for me its ZFS or bcachefs.

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        • TheMightyBuzzard
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2021
          • 416

          #94
          Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
          Frankly if Linus still views this as his personal pet project he needs to grow up, Linux is not a personal pet project anymore and hasn't been for a while. Its the most used OS kernel in the world and it frankly needs to be treated that way.
          "I like it too, so it's not yours anymore!"
          "I think an unstable feature is awesome, so the kernel development rules that have been in place forever should be changed to accommodate it instead of everyone who wants a stable system!"

          Okay, Kent.

          Comment

          • Alexmitter
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2019
            • 1132

            #95
            Originally posted by Raka555 View Post

            btrfs is not rock solid. I recently lost my cache drive, which was btrfs, on an Unraid server, due to some sort of corruption. I rather stick to ext4
            Benefits to the doubt but i'd basically guarantee that what you have here is a hardware failure. Something neither ext4 nor zfs nor bcachefs and not even miracleFS will safe you from.

            Comment

            • mdedetrich
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2019
              • 2538

              #96
              Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post

              Benefits to the doubt but i'd basically guarantee that what you have here is a hardware failure. Something neither ext4 nor zfs nor bcachefs and not even miracleFS will safe you from.
              Nope, I have gotten corrupted data when trying out btrfs in the past and the hardware was functioning perfectly fine. I know because I replaced btrfs with openzfs and had no issues since.

              Granted this was some time ago, but btrfs has definitely created data corruption on perfectly functioning hardware (typically with non RAID 10/non single partition setups which are the non trivial ones that are hard to get right).
              Last edited by mdedetrich; 06 October 2024, 09:44 AM.

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              • Alexmitter
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2019
                • 1132

                #97
                Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post

                Datacenters only use btrfs in one setup which is RAID-10, and that is the most trivial setup for a filesystem

                Yes, and? Follow the manual.

                Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                This is wrong, he used to work at Datera Inc which is an enterprise that specializes in data storage and he has many clients from there
                So he once worked for a company that does data storage. Nice. Too bad they don't sponsor his work, like any other company in that space. He only has private zfs fanboys donating on patreon.

                Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                btrfs is broken when it comes to RAID 5/6, which is something that it even now warns you when you try to create the filesystem (they only added the warning a couple of years ago).
                As the manual states. btrfs' incomplete state on RAID5/6 are no secret. Other filesystems spottiness in terms of file safety on RAID5/6 are also no secret. Those modes simply require special care on all filesystems.

                Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post
                Which means I cannot use btrfs because it has a write hole, for me its ZFS or bcachefs.
                If you believe your data is safe on ZFS or even on bcachefs in its current state (clownface) in RAID5/6, then good for you, i'll go laugh my ass off.

                Comment

                • TheMightyBuzzard
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2021
                  • 416

                  #98
                  Originally posted by Alexmitter View Post

                  Benefits to the doubt but i'd basically guarantee that what you have here is a hardware failure. Something neither ext4 nor zfs nor bcachefs and not even miracleFS will safe you from.
                  This will become arguably true when they can go three years without using the word "corruption" (or any synonym) in the btrfs changelog. Until then, it's not even a debate; you're just wrong.

                  Comment

                  • Alexmitter
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2019
                    • 1132

                    #99
                    Originally posted by mdedetrich View Post

                    Nope, I have gotten corrupted data when trying out btrfs in the past and the hardware was functioning perfectly fine. I know because I replaced btrfs with openzfs and had no issues since.

                    Granted this was some time ago, but btrfs has definitely created corrupted installs.
                    When was that, in 2009 or did you at least wait a year after merge. Fedora defaults to btrfs since 2021, i'll use it since then on multiple machines. We switched over at work too. And it just worked, as expected. I get it, trust is important and btrfs had a spotty early development in the past, but damn it get over it. As it is now and if you follow the manual, its rock solid and heavily battle tested.

                    Comment

                    • szymon_g
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 409

                      Originally posted by hf_139 View Post
                      It's nice to get the drama updates from LKML.
                      But why do we never get drama updates from GNOME?

                      Like when the one foundation board member Gnomie got kicked out of the whole project, we didn't get an article. When the one Gnome got kicked out of freedesktop.org, afaik we also didn't get one (i might be wrong on this one).

                      The Gnome gitlab is a treasure trove of drama and incompetent cancerous developers (mostly employed by RedHat).
                      You are missing out on lots of fun.
                      links?

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