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  • Originally posted by ququk View Post
    And Putin has imperialistic resentiments are in mind. What was normal in times of Roman Empire/Byzantine Empire when slavery was part of live, should not be acceptable in XXI century, when we know slavery is not nessesary evil to run a country.
    ‚Äč
    In my opinion, Putin is a man that had suffered a lot with the war we brought to is door in WWII.
    He and many million Russians still suffer from the trauma that we created.
    And probably he is worried that we are going for the same path, without learning nothing from history, with a difference..a lot of countries now have Nuclear Weapons.

    If WWIII happens, we are the ones to blame, and don't come here saying that "ho no...we provoked no war.." cynicism..because we know very well who has created a army to attack donbass, and who is escalating the conflict..

    Russia never had slaves...it is us in the west that where enslaving the African Continent for 500 years, and still trying to do the same today!
    So don't blame again Russia for our own mistakes.

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    • Originally posted by tuxd3v View Post
      Russia never had slaves...
      any nation that has prisons has slaves. unless they've abolished prisons very recently, they have slaves right now.

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      • Originally posted by tuxd3v View Post
        In my opinion, Putin is a man that had suffered a lot with the war we brought to is door in WWII.
        He and many million Russians still suffer from the trauma that we created.
        And probably he is worried that we are going for the same path, without learning nothing from history, with a difference..a lot of countries now have Nuclear Weapons.
        The trauma has been there before. The communistic ideas and paranoid Stalin put terror in the country into the next level. In their principles comunists postulated to steal private property and you were rewarded not because you're creative and build sth, but because you're mindless follower of the establishment, maybe even denounce your family. Gulag was the exact example of exploiting people for a long time, taking benefits from them to suffer and pure slavery. Penal colonies in 2023 are successors of the idea. They are brutal, people are exploited. Some of them work 16 hrs per day.
        And you can go to penal colony for political reasons to free your country from a trap. This is shame. And the whole stalinistic model of justice is absolutely nihilistic.

        Some industrialisation that came with Stalin would happen and happened everywhere without help of communists.

        Originally posted by tuxd3v View Post
        If WWIII happens, we are the ones to blame, and don't come here saying that "ho no...we provoked no war.." cynicism..because we know very well who has created a army to attack donbass, and who is escalating the conflict..
        Well, it could be anyone to blame, as the problem is what action would start WWIII. How would you know it already?
        And little green men came from who? You have right to defend against invasion and ask for help, whether it is declared as war or you act organize unfair referendum with prepared result.

        Originally posted by tuxd3v View Post
        Russia never had slaves...it is us in the west that where enslaving the African Continent for 500 years, and still trying to do the same today!
        So don't blame again Russia for our own mistakes.
        Serfdom in Russia happening for ages was type of slavery of citizens. I'm not going to defend any actions of exploitation wherever they take place.

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        • Originally posted by hotaru View Post
          any nation that has prisons has slaves. unless they've abolished prisons very recently, they have slaves right now.
          Prisons are necessary. You can't let murderers or rapists to live freely and let them attack next victims. And it is form of punishment for other crimes. The problem is when thinking about prosperity of your citizens and doing sth to make it happen is recognized as a crime.

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          • Originally posted by hotaru View Post
            any nation that has prisons has slaves.
            Hu? How do you draw that connection? What do prisons have to do with slaves?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by tuxd3v View Post
              Russia never had slaves...it is us in the west that where enslaving the African Continent for 500 years, and still trying to do the same today!
              So don't blame again Russia for our own mistakes.
              I'm just doing a little surface research on Wikipedia, and this seems like a semantic game.
              There were serfs in Russia until 1861, and serfs....
              • Could not marry without consent
              • did not have rights as citizens
              • were not allowed to leave the property
              • Were required to work to make mandatory payments
              • were subject to periodic "corvee" labor which was unpaid
              • were frequently state-owned
              That sounds a lot like slavery, which may be why the abolition of the practice was called an emancipation.

              There was historically extensive "traditional" slavery in places like Crimea, and of course Moscow in the 16th century.

              Wikipedia also notes that nearly a million in Russia today are in some form of slavery, whether forced prostitution, debt bondage, or otherwise.

              But yea, I suppose if you redefine what words mean, "there are no slaves in Russia and never have been".

              As for "enslaving the African continent", anyone with any historical knowledge of the subject knows that Africans enslaved both other Africans and Europeans-- it was the cause of the Barbary wars, and was a practice that had been going on for the better part of a millenium. What the west did was absolutely horrendous, but to ignore the other enslaving parties is nothing but historical revisionism.

              At some point it became chic to criticize all things western as if all evils originated in Europe during the 18th century, but it turns out that other parts of the world are also subject to human nature.
              Last edited by ll1025; 23 March 2023, 07:26 AM.

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              • Originally posted by ll1025 View Post
                I'm just doing a little surface research on Wikipedia, and this seems like a semantic game.
                There were serfs in Russia until 1861, and serfs....
                • Could not marry without consent
                • did not have rights as citizens
                • were not allowed to leave the property
                • Were required to work to make mandatory payments
                • were subject to periodic "corvee" labor which was unpaid
                • were frequently state-owned
                That sounds a lot like slavery, which may be why the abolition of the practice was called an emancipation.

                There was historically extensive "traditional" slavery in places like Crimea, and of course Moscow in the 16th century.

                Wikipedia also notes that nearly a million in Russia today are in some form of slavery, whether forced prostitution, debt bondage, or otherwise.

                But yea, I suppose if you redefine what words mean, "there are no slaves in Russia and never have been".

                As for "enslaving the African continent", anyone with any historical knowledge of the subject knows that Africans enslaved both other Africans and Europeans-- it was the cause of the Barbary wars, and was a practice that had been going on for the better part of a millenium. What the west did was absolutely horrendous, but to ignore the other enslaving parties is nothing but historical revisionism.

                At some point it became chic to criticize all things western as if all evils originated in Europe during the 18th century, but it turns out that other parts of the world are also subject to human nature.
                Neanderthals and cro-magnons couldn't entirely wipe each other out, and their copulative by product was us lugheads.
                Last edited by stiiixy; 23 March 2023, 10:38 PM.
                Hi

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                • Originally posted by tuxd3v View Post
                  Russia never had slaves...
                  More like Russians rarely tell the truth.
                  You should've known about Kholop , Serfdom in Russia etc.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by hotaru View Post
                    any nation that has prisons has slaves. unless they've abolished prisons very recently, they have slaves right now.
                    I don't agree, but I understand that you have to go long way, to say that Russia has slaves..

                    But if you go by that, we in the west also have slaves.
                    By your logic...Who have more slaves, all the west or Russia?right..

                    Slavery existed in the west for a long time.
                    There are people here complaining of slavery in Russia, in the past, but my western country had slavery till 1974.

                    Now I am not saying that the Russian Judicial system is fair or perfect, but I also acknowledge that hour judicial system is broken.
                    In any case, how will you deal with butchers, killers, rapists, etc?

                    Law is the foundation of a state, if it doesn't exist, anarchy,criminality,chaos will destroy everything to the stone age.

                    Russia had a bit of this problem in the 90s, and only one man managed to take the country out of it, and that man was Putin.
                    Currently in the world, there are only 2 man's that standout of the populace, President XI from China, and President Putin from Russia.

                    XI managed to get out of poverty more than 500 Million people, and pushed China to be the most industrialized country on earth.
                    Putin Managed to get Russia out of collapse,restore the state and restore conditions of living for 150Million people.

                    Here a mention can also be made to German Merkel, because in its long mandate, she managed to push Germany up a lot.
                    But she could not be compared with Putin, because Putin did a tremendously greater gob.

                    A mention cal also be made to Charles de Gaulle, from France, he has also a deserved mention.

                    In a world of more than 7 billion people...only 2 Man's stand out..and this is a shame!
                    We should have settled the bar a big higher, to only allow Presidents, that really have the capacity to create great things, instead we elect idiots, that only destroy what others managed to build..

                    Comment


                    • tuxd3v I like how you skated over my comment RE modern slavery in russia, as well as serfs / their emancipation.

                      You keep saying "we" in reference to the west / the US, but there is no world where you will convince me that you are western.

                      Xi did not raise 500 million out of poverty. You could argue that Mao did that, if you can cover your eyes to the casualties along the way of the great leap forward.

                      Putin has managed to completely ruin one of the top aerospace agencies in the world, to the point where it is effectively a slush fund for high-ranking allies. His military is a shadow of what it was before the collapse, which is why their only carrier comes with free AAA service provided by a tugboat for when it loses propulsion and has to be hauled home through the english channel. Go look up the service record of the Admiral Kuznetsov, or the carrier they built for India.

                      The economy of Russia is certainly not thriving, not when you compare (now or historically) PPP-adjusted median incomes. China has a better economy in just about every sector, which given Russia's historic lead is quite something.

                      Honestly, it's hard to come up with an area where Russia has gotten better because of Putin, and I don't think I've seen an opinion to the contrary outside of Russia-- one of the reasons I do not buy that you are western.

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