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Data Suggests CoC + Outreachy Hasn't Helped Increase Female Participation In Debian

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  • Originally posted by mppix View Post
    The situation is better than it used to be and "on paper" opportunities may seem equal. However, a female tends to have a (much) harder time to get into and remain in STEM areas. Therefore, things are not equal - by a long shot. Example: if your boss holds the opinions exposed in this thread on you; would you stay in the company?
    So what? I'm a male and have to work with under performing fellow workers and sub par management. The reality is you can spend a life time finding the perfect work environment. I can only suggest that such a workplace doesn't exist and never will.

    On the education side it would be most interesting to see why so many woman drop out of IT programs. I really don't believe it is due ot being a male dominated industry or due to male dominated teaching. In fact back in my day several of the first year courses where taught by woman so I don't see a reason to blame the male dominated industry. This is one reason why I really believe that we as a society need to overhaul the K-12 educational system, it just leaves too many people unprepared for the working world. I consider going to college as part of the working world, sort of like preschool is prep for grade school.

    Again, the goal is not to make females male. It is about empowering them to choose a career path without being slapped with that decision for the rest of their lives..
    The problem is the program is upside down. It places people into positions where they can not succeed.

    If everyone could treat woman as humans/possible colleagues, we would already be a lot further.
    It is a ruff and tumble world out there, some people can not be treated as humans which is something woman need to learn. Is it possible to eliminate assholes from this world - I really doubt it. As such you need to be able to deal with them. It isn't just assholes that make for a dynamic work environment, you have to deal with the sub par individuals that engage in sleazy behavior behind your back and other personalities that are not exactly a benefit to the company. The minute you leave the environment of a small company or partnership you have all sorts of personalities that will turn your stomach. It is just the reality of humanity, there are just to many low performance individuals born everyday.

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    • Originally posted by chocolate View Post
      What I personally find paradoxical about these initiatives is that, if I were a target individual, I would find them condescending and feel disincentivized. Here, since you are too weak, we are forcing a welcoming environment and making waves about it. I think that sane people will just recognize them as such and leave. It's stressful.

      Why is being agnostic so difficult? I think a truly welcoming environment would be one where these things don't even need to be discussed, where it's natural for things to be... agnostic.

      SJWs tend to not accept that, when differences in career preference remain in individuals who have grown up having equal opportunities, it's simply a "natural", emergent asymmetry. It may still be caused by imagery and traditions, but it's out of scope.
      The best you can do is to be agnostic, so that an individual who does not conform to that imagery and those traditions will find their way with as little friction as possible.

      Have a nice weekend.
      Dont know the current status, but at least a decade ago KDE was one of the open source projects with the highest percentages of women partcipating. When the subject of outreach programs came up the female developers asked KDE not to participate in projects targetting or promoting women specifically, they found it condescending, and preferred equal treatment.

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      • Originally posted by mppix View Post
        After reading this thread, I am saddened to find me seriously considering avoiding Phoronix. It looks like a small (but loud) share of the community does not understand what feminism or generally programs involving under-represented groups are about.

        It is of key importance to society to provide opportunity to groups that are under-represented in areas. It has been prove time and time again that this has overwhelmingly positive consequences ranging from better work environments to more diverse ideas (that many or may not translate into business). This does NOT mean that the intended outcome is a perfect split of jobs and/or salary by population. However, it means that people, which would not otherwise have the chance to participate, get exposed to the field/job/task. They may not have other chances to get that exposure and may not even look for it on their own initially.

        I sometimes wonder if this is still timely; if we still need these programs. Why wouldn't any parent do engineering/programming projects with their daughters and sons alike? ..or send them to summer camps?
        This thread clearly shows that we do. Far to many (some may not have children yet), seem entitled to know what woman like or should be.
        This has real consequences in education since women may never get a real shot at some things. Look it this way: did you really "like" school, math, playing that instrument, or competitive sport, when you were very young? Usually, we tend to be very bad at it initially but get better to great over time with enough exercise.
        This also happens to boys btw -> it is not a bad thing to get exposed and have a minimal understanding of fashion, art, .... Then we have a trend that k12 school performance of males increasingly lags females..

        PS/for the record:
        1) underrepresented groups never take your (IT) job away or get the internship position of your son. If anything, they strengthen the industry by providing a new interesting perspective. When job loss happens, it is often because an asian country can do roughly the same just cheaper.
        2) anyone suggesting that woman are dumber/have no clue in whatever context is a moron. This is scientifically false and is known for a long time.
        3) if programs like this did benefit only 1 person, it was worth it. It did not cost you anything.
        True, but to make progress you need to focus on the source, companies and projects competing over the trickle educated doesn't help. I found it interresting at the computer science department where I studied, that we had around 8% women in 1996 around 20% in 2000, and down to 5% in 2005 (in the first year, the percentages for those finishing were 50% higher, since more men always joined without realising CS isn't just programming) The main difference in those time periods was hype about computers and computer science. When society encouraged more people to study computer science, a much larger part of those added were female compared when we only let hardcore nerds choose it.
        Last edited by carewolf; 14 February 2021, 04:18 AM.

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        • Originally posted by mppix View Post

          I used to teach advanced and applied math at the university level. Math does not care. Who is sufficiently able can justify anything with it just by adapting the hypothesis or formulating a model. Statistics is the art of using math to your advantage.
          Also, the computing ability of a human brain (as in calculating mathematical results) is fairly low. Advanced math is about logic, understanding relations, and understanding fundamental truths. You may not get that.
          Some argue statistics is not math. I don't however go into that discussion, I just say that just because you can bend and twist statististics does not invalidate the rest of the math or make statistics invalid as a tool in math. Your argument equals claims that guns are bad because you say they can kill people when the fact is that bad people use guns as tools to kill people. You may not get that.

          Also I think the brain is CPU of a human, and in IT terms it does have computing power. And more, math is language for people. You may not get that either.

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          • Originally posted by wizard69 View Post
            So what? I'm a male and have to work with under performing fellow workers and sub par management. The reality is you can spend a life time finding the perfect work environment. I can only suggest that such a workplace doesn't exist and never will.
            I've tried to reason with that guy, it is time wasted as you only get to hear unproven claims from his political point of view. He cannot even accept that these diversity programs failed to achieve anything good (and I would also argue that they are counter-productive for the institutions which employ them by discriminating capable non-minority applicants). That is not an opinion, this is a fact, even if the numbers for Outreachy are not statistically sound, there are a lot of other studies around failed diversity programs which paint the same picture. There are a lot of interest groups that cannot accept such an outcome and try to shift the blame to the managers implementing these programs, no - it is the fundamental reasoning behind such programs that is deeply flawed. But these people just continue to live in their own dream world where you simply achieve good things by abolishing meritocracy. The sad thing is, that more of such nonsense-programs get implemented, in Germany they recently introduced a law setting quota for women in top companies' boardrooms. I hope that a judgment of the Federal Constitutional Court will overtake that law.

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            • Originally posted by pal666 View Post
              so your many words can be summarized as "there's no proof that coc and outreachy do any good". i have impression that article author said same thing
              No, that's incorrect. I was talking about the numbers from the blog post. There may be proof somewhere else. I don't know about that, I haven't looked.
              Note that my words also mean that this is in no way proof that CoC and Outreachy do any harm.

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              • ms178 To your last post, that's because forced acceptance isn't really acceptance. I look at it like suicide with antidepressants. Unless a person truly does have a chemical imbalance all a happy pill does is mask the underlying problem while making you feel happy. All the crap making me depressed hasn't changed except I feel happier. These programs are no different - nothing has really changed but we get to feel better about it.

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                • Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post
                  ms178 To your last post, that's because forced acceptance isn't really acceptance. I look at it like suicide with antidepressants. Unless a person truly does have a chemical imbalance all a happy pill does is mask the underlying problem while making you feel happy. All the crap making me depressed hasn't changed except I feel happier. These programs are no different - nothing has really changed but we get to feel better about it.
                  True, this cannot be ordered in a top-down fashion. And considering all the financial and social costs attached with these programs, I'd rather see higher wages in the social sector or better childcare, as I assume that these measures would have a better impact on society.

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                  • Originally posted by ms178 View Post

                    True, this cannot be ordered in a top-down fashion. And considering all the financial and social costs attached with these programs, I'd rather see higher wages in the social sector or better childcare, as I assume that these measures would have a better impact on society.
                    Yep. This stuff is like jailing people during the war on drugs. Jail doesn't fix poverty which is the main reason so many people get into drug dealing. Jail doesn't fix depression and other reasons people use drugs. A forced CoC doesn't actually treat the underlying issue of assholes being assholes.

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                    • Originally posted by skeevy420 View Post

                      Yep. This stuff is like jailing people during the war on drugs. Jail doesn't fix poverty which is the main reason so many people get into drug dealing. Jail doesn't fix depression and other reasons people use drugs. A forced CoC doesn't actually treat the underlying issue of assholes being assholes.
                      Finally someone got a clue on that certain actions cause more harm than good.

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