Originally posted by tildearrow
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Linux Sound Subsystem Begins Cleaning Up Its Terminology To Meet Inclusive Guidelines
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Originally posted by computerquip View Post
No, PulseAudio can sit on top of OSS. ALSA has a built-in mixer (although this wasn't always the case) but PulseAudio is more than just a mixer. You can use both OSS and ALSA without PulseAudio, but you cannot use PulseAudio without OSS or ALSA.
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We've veered off the original topic quite a bit. Normally I would just remain quiet in such a case. But seeing that the discussion has already turned quite political I think I can continue with an answer.
Let me address your points:
Originally posted by boxie View PostNaming someone as an enemy is to dehumanise them (they are no longer a person, they are the enemy)
Using the correct names is vital if we want to have a fruitful conversation. Putting a label on someone does not remove personhood from them, it helps to understand them. Pointing out who or what the enemy is, is of vital importance as ignorance can lead to destruction.
Originally posted by boxie View Postbecause we, as the human race, do not like doing bad things to people,
Originally posted by boxie View Postbecause enemies must be destroyed!
Originally posted by boxie View PostAlso, your use of communism implies you believe it is a big bad thing. In and of itself it is not inherently bad - it's just another way that people can work together
Some say that "the idea of communism is not bad". I even disagree with that. Communism is based on envy. It always compares. The "classes", the "establishment". "capitalism" vs. "communism" etc. It always needs to divide. It always assumes that "it" (the communism) knows everything better than others.
Originally posted by boxie View Post(capitalism being another that I believe you are quite partial to).
As I said above, communism always tries to divide. You have to label me with something bad because I disagree with you. Am I a capitalist? Can a person like me be a capitalist? Do you know me? Do you know what a capitalist is? Can you define the term correctly? As above: you believe you know me better than I know myself.
Originally posted by boxie View PostSpecific implementations of these systems however may be the what you are railing against.
Originally posted by boxie View PostI implore you to take a step back from the edge and try to understand why people are doing things the way they are. Sometimes it is just stupid. othertimes there are much deeper meanings
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This is just too insane for me to leave it alone.
Originally posted by Auzy View PostErr, actually, that's not even close to the definition of the meme.. And, both of your arguments revolved around the term "SJW", which is also a meme...
Originally posted by Auzy View PostHe's complaining about policies which actually don't affect him at all, and demanding they change it.. Like walking into a Supermarket and shouting at the staff because he doesn't like the store logo (like a typical Karen). Nobody is forcing him to use Linux, and he is welcome to revert the patches (they're very simple patches)...
Originally posted by Auzy View PostIF you read the article, you'll find a link to the patch-set, and you'll agree immediately. You're literally turning a small naming change designed to improve the community, into some weird American political thing. If you seriously think it's some left wing conspiracy, then, I'd suggest you need to go on holiday, so you can put things back into perspective..
As a side note, it's not turning it into "some weird American political thing". The line of thinking pretty much isolated to the US and closely following countries.
Originally posted by Auzy View PostIf he's not willing to maintain a code-set to revert the changes (which would be EASY), it firmly proves that the changes don't impact him negatively in any way, and his reasoning is wrong and the effect of the changes on him personally are exaggerated.
Originally posted by Auzy View PostFurthermore, if you ignore the politics, Denylist/Allowlist are far more suitable terms anyway (blacklist/whitelist wouldn't literally translate well to many other languages).
The "black" in "blacklist" and "white" in "whitelist" have nothing to do with skin color, it refers to "negative" or "positive" (or in the case of that early use of blacklist, "wanted dead"). This in turn was preceded by the term "blackball", where one would vote with a black ball into a voting container representing a negative vote (or a white ball representing a positive vote). Just like how "black death" doesn't refer to skin color, it is a literal translation from Danish where "black" referred to it being depressing.
I'm not a particularly sensitive person but the level of malicious association and playing the devils advocate done in an effort to destroy the term blacklist is genuinely making me feel sick. You people disgust me.
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Summary of thread: Lots of people getting super triggered and acting emotionally.
Allow/deny are more intuitive. Black/white are fine for native speakers (who are probably familiar with the terms) or translations (where it's changed anyway), but aren't the clearest of terms if you're dealing with a second language. And given that the code is usually standardised to English, any non-Aglophone coders will be forced to contend with English no matter their grasp of it.
But you're free to burst into tears when people propose things that are objectively inoffensive and have side benefits. It's just that you come across as a hand-wringing snowflake who chucks a tanty when his feelings are hurt, and no-one will listen to you if a wolf ever does rock up.
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Originally posted by 1Samildanach View PostSummary of thread: Lots of people getting super triggered and acting emotionally.
Originally posted by 1Samildanach View PostAllow/deny are more intuitive. Black/white are fine for native speakers (who are probably familiar with the terms) or translations (where it's changed anyway), but aren't the clearest of terms if you're dealing with a second language. And given that the code is usually standardised to English, any non-Aglophone coders will be forced to contend with English no matter their grasp of it.
Just wait until you figure out you'll need to also need to "contend" with C to make most meaningful contributions to the Linux kernel.
Originally posted by 1Samildanach View PostBut you're free to burst into tears when people propose things that are objectively inoffensive and have side benefits. It's just that you come across as a hand-wringing snowflake who chucks a tanty when his feelings are hurt, and no-one will listen to you if a wolf ever does rock up.
And again the people stirring up a fuzz about blacklist and whitelist the the ones who "come across as a hand-wringing snowflake who chucks a tanty when his feelings are hurt", are you saying we should go with "no-one will listen to you if a wolf ever does rock up" on that as well? Because we clearly didn't and now the needs of the offended outweighs the need of the many.
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I'm predicting we will see allot of bug reports in the future of applications if we start changing all these things around. Some apps have got quite use to the naming conventions in place already, coming in and just wishy washy changing things because some (external & non-users) people feel upset about it all is not a logical thing to do!
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Originally posted by Djhg2000 View PostDo you not think they have the right to be? So it's fine to be offended as long as you can use mental gymnastics to make it a racial issue, but when we're having a change forced upon us which actually has offensive implications for an entire industry then we're supposed to just shut up because we had it coming anyways, or what?
Originally posted by Djhg2000 View PostIn what world is "blacklist" a hard word? It has been in use since the 17th century and its more figurative predecessor "blackball" since the 16th century. If your language hasn't given you the conceptual tools to handle the meaning of a list with a negative criteria in that time then your language is probably struggling for survival anyway.
Originally posted by Djhg2000 View PostWhat could possibly be a side benefit of eliminating the words "blacklist" and "whitelist"? Do you have any idea how much work it takes to consistently change terminology in technical documentation?
Originally posted by Djhg2000 View PostAnd again the people stirring up a fuzz about blacklist and whitelist the the ones who "come across as a hand-wringing snowflake who chucks a tanty when his feelings are hurt", are you saying we should go with "no-one will listen to you if a wolf ever does rock up" on that as well? Because we clearly didn't and now the needs of the offended outweighs the need of the many.
I have heavy criticism of identity politics and stuff... but that's basically 'cause it predisposes people to right-wing thinking, and pushes people to conform to what other people think they should be/do. But this change in terminology is of no concern.Last edited by 1Samildanach; 24 July 2020, 01:45 AM.
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Originally posted by 1Samildanach View PostPresumptions.
Originally posted by 1Samildanach View PostEtymology is irrelevant to ESL.
Originally posted by 1Samildanach View PostLike I said, intuitive if you haven't grown up with the language.
Originally posted by 1Samildanach View PostLol. How is phrasing "Needs of the many"? This has zero negative impact, some positive impact, and is pretty low effort to implement.
Originally posted by 1Samildanach View PostI have heavy criticism of identity politics and stuff... but that's basically 'cause it predisposes people to right-wing thinking, and pushes people to conform to what other people think they should be/do. But this change in terminology is of no concern.
Also as I said before this results in a lot of technical documentation having to be updated. Someone has to do it and it doesn't matter what they think because this change comes from upstream, it's just pointless work for no benefit.
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Originally posted by Djhg2000 View PostBut this is of great concern. Over the past few years politics has snuck into everything. It started with eliminating a few non-PC people, then came the CoC-fest, then eliminating a few more non-PC people, then going for the big fish like Torvalds and Stallman, and now this. Fuck political correctness in all aspects. We don't need it, we don't want it, and it's destroying communities. Whatever we give to the PC people they see as a sign that they can take more. This needs to stop, not be encouraged.
Richard Stallman, however, got screwed in all regards. Dude isn't even non-PC and still manages to be a very honest spirit.
Anyways, I'm mentioning that since the cases are definitely different and it's dangerous to lob things together in a generic way like that. They need to be differentiated.
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