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Linux Kernel Preparing New Guidelines For Using Inclusive Terminology

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  • #21
    Originally posted by ALRBP View Post
    Honestly, as a French, I do not understand Americans.
    It helps to know the full history of racial injustice. We (hopefully) all know about slavery and the US Civil War, but that was followed by many forms of discrimination, segregation, disenfranchisement, lynchings, bad policing, and other forms of oppression (including minstrel shows).

    If you don't consider where people are coming from, then it's not easy to see why they're sensitive to certain things. And a practical consequence of all that history is that you can't look at the current set of issues as a problem that can simply be solved in isolation. It's only natural there would be certain sensitivities. So, I'm not about to quibble with a few name changes, like whole "master/slave" thing, or even whitelist/blacklist (which isn't of racist origins, but I can see why it sounds bad).

    If you can't muster some empathy or sympathy, at least try a little patience and flexibility. Also, have you ever asked a black compatriot how they feel about blackface or racism in France? You might learn a couple things, if you're brave enough to ask and open-minded enough to listen.

    Originally posted by ALRBP View Post
    I hope my country will be preserved from those new US-inspired "anti-racist" activists that, to me and lots of other French people, looks actually more racist that some of our far-right politicians.
    Don't confuse the 99.9% of protesters with the handful of rioters. The media is always attracted to the extremes, which gives a very distorted perception.

    BTW, I find it a little ironic that a French is taking anyone else to task for protesting. Isn't that your country's thing? I mean in the past year, you guys had huge protests over pension reform and the whole gilets jaunes thing. Next to that, yeah, I guess racial injustice and police brutality are indeed small potatoes.

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    • #22
      Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
      The even stranger thing, is that when you look at the numbers, the killing of unarmed citizens by police in the US is so rare it's hardly worth talking about. In 2019, there were a grand total of 9 unarmed black people killed by police in the US. Yes, nine. During that same time, twenty (20) Americans were killed by lightning strikes. So the fact is, you are more than twice as likely to die in the US from a lightning bolt from the sky, then you are to be an unarmed black man murdered by the police. The entire BLM argument is absurd. Nevermind the 10,000 or so black Americans that are murdered every single year by other black Americans, mainly in drug/gang related ghetto crime. Those 10,000 black lives don't matter, apparently, as the BLM movement ignores them completely. Only those 9 matter, where the police are involved. It's shameful how dishonest the whole BLM thing is. #FactsMatter
      so, what you are saying is that you should give up your first amendment rights to bear arms if you are black. gotcha (yes, I too can mischaracterise an argument)

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      • #23
        Linux is joke before but CongraFuckingTulations now its low then joke OS

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        • #24
          I do agree everyone's life matters, however I don't agree on political argument happen in tech space.

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          • #25
            Originally posted by ALRBP
            Honestly, as a French, I do not understand Americans.
            Oh I’m American, let me explain. In my country, we have a certain group known as “white saviors” who feel it is their duty to go around protecting black people because they see them as too inferior and helpless to take care of themselves.

            They act preemptively to protect their charges by interpreting for them what is racist, which is anything that reminds them of their deeply repressed and bigoted views, such as attacking chess for allowing white pieces to go first.

            Is there any innocuous thing that involves the colors black and white? Don’t worry! They will find racism in there one way or another. The last place they will look is in their dark hearts.

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            • #26
              Originally posted by antonyshen View Post
              I do agree everyone's life matters, however I don't agree on political argument happen in tech space.
              nope with this we destroyed racism completely how dare you to questions mericaa way for solving the problem

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              • #27
                Originally posted by cqcallaw View Post

                So odd to see police shootings in the U.S. and the resultant furor characterized as "a global reckoning"; does anyone have insight what makes this a global reckoning? From what I've heard and read, it seems this change would be more accurately characterized as #include <us_cultural_baggage.h>
                Not just USA cultural baggage. Black people exist in Australia (where I live), New Guinea and through East Asia. In my "color" world, I am a South African "colored". When the whities talk about black & white, we East Asians feel discriminated. We are left out or ignored. Neither hated nor loved. Our children must choose: black or white heroes? If music or sports, perhaps a black hero?

                Instead of Black-White, why not Good-Bad, or other judgemental terms?

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                • #28
                  Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
                  The even stranger thing, is that when you look at the numbers, the killing of unarmed citizens by police in the US is so rare it's hardly worth talking about. In 2019, there were a grand total of 9 unarmed black people killed by police in the US. Yes, nine.
                  Here are some things to consider:
                  • We know cops have planted weapons on the bodies of victims, in order to claim they were armed. We simply don't know how often this happens, but there's a good chance that statistic is an under-count.
                  • Is murder the only crime you care about? What about abuse, intimidation, excessive force, harassment, etc?
                  Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
                  The entire BLM argument is absurd.
                  If a cop brazenly killed your unarmed friend, family member, or acquaintance, without fear of repercussions, I'm sure you'd be protesting it. If you got stopped, searched, and dehumanized because of your skin color, you'd be protesting it.

                  It's not just the killings, and it's not the sheer number of the killings, but that they're often so brazen, careless, and without consequences for the cops. And that's killings - do you think there's any sort of accountability for the rest of it? Cops are entrusted with the use of lethal force and must be held to a higher standard because of it.

                  You're really not even trying to see another perspective. I get why cops feel they need legal protection. I respect the service they perform and the risks they take, but I can also see how their own actions destroy trust with the communities they're supposed to be protecting and needlessly escalate situations. It shouldn't be seen as anti-cop to call attention to that, and to create systems to get rid of the bad apples among them just like we do with bad doctors, lawyers, and other professionals.

                  Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
                  Nevermind the 10,000 or so black Americans that are murdered every single year by other black Americans,
                  And there are lots of whites killed by whites. That is almost a non-point, but I see what you're thinking. You seem to believe that more accountability for police is going to impair their ability to do their job, but what people are calling for is:
                  • resources to be directed towards diverting blacks from crime, in the first place.
                  • restoration of trust between law-enforcement and the communities they police.
                  Both of these have been shown to lead to fewer deaths, so there's really no contradiction, here. Camden, NJ stands as an example of what's possible through root-and-branch police reform.
                  By 2019, homicides had declined to 25, a 63% decrease. This coincided with wide-ranging reforms by the new police department.[7]

                  Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
                  Those 10,000 black lives don't matter, apparently, as the BLM movement ignores them completely. Only those 9 matter, where the police are involved. It's shameful how dishonest the whole BLM thing is. #FactsMatter
                  I think it's more shameful to have such a strong opinion on something, in the face of such shocking ignorance. Try actually listening, for once.
                  Last edited by coder; 05 July 2020, 03:08 AM.

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                  • #29
                    Originally posted by cynical View Post

                    Oh I’m American, let me explain. In my country, we have a certain group known as “white saviors” who feel it is their duty to go around protecting black people because they see them as too inferior and helpless to take care of themselves.

                    They act preemptively to protect their charges by interpreting for them what is racist, which is anything that reminds them of their deeply repressed and bigoted views, such as attacking chess for allowing white pieces to go first.

                    Is there any innocuous thing that involves the colors black and white? Don’t worry! They will find racism in there one way or another. The last place they will look is in their dark hearts.
                    I play both Japanese chess (将棋, shōgi) and normal chess and there no role for allowing white pieces to go first to be honest you can change the colour of sets as you like

                    Comment


                    • #30
                      Originally posted by coder View Post
                      It helps to know the full history of racial injustice. We (hopefully) all know about slavery and the US Civil War, but that was followed by many forms of discrimination, segregation, disenfranchisement, lynchings, bad policing, and other forms of oppression (including minstrel shows).

                      If you don't consider where people are coming from, then it's not easy to see why they're sensitive to certain things. And a practical consequence of all that history is that you can't look at the current set of issues as a problem that can simply be solved in isolation. It's only natural there would be certain sensitivities. So, I'm not about to quibble with a few name changes, like whole "master/slave" thing, or even whitelist/blacklist (which isn't of racist origins, but I can see why it sounds bad).

                      If you can't muster some empathy or sympathy, at least try a little patience and flexibility. Also, have you ever asked a black compatriot how they feel about blackface or racism in France? You might learn a couple things, if you're brave enough to ask and open-minded enough to listen.


                      Don't confuse the 99.9% of protesters with the handful of rioters. The media is always attracted to the extremes, which gives a very distorted perception.

                      BTW, I find it a little ironic that a French is taking anyone else to task for protesting. Isn't that your country's thing? I mean in the past year, you guys had huge protests over pension reform and the whole gilets jaunes thing. Next to that, yeah, I guess racial injustice and police brutality are indeed small potatoes.
                      I know history racism in the US, slavery and the Civil War.

                      For my view on racism in France, my father is born in Morocco and my own skin color is not white, so I am myself part of a so-called "racial minority" (Arabians are not socially considered white in France). Racism exists in France, and it is a problem, but definitely not as much as in the USA. I believe that fighting racism is important, but I do not believe changing engineering terms will help. I am definitely not any kind of "moderate" ; I consider my political position to be far-left and I think that all racist people should be arrested, but having a "blacklist" is NOT racism.

                      I do not criticize protesters, I think they are right to complain of racist murders, what I criticize is some ideas, originating from some intellectuals, mostly not actual racism victims, like changing engineering terms, that are just ridiculous or even sometime counterproductive (like asking for racial statistics in countries which banned them years ago).

                      Yes, in France, we do protest a lot and, as I said, I have nothing against protesting, I did that myself (including against police brutality), what I dislike is when people ask for bad or useless things while there are a lot of real necessary changes. Protesting against police brutality and racism and asking for a more respectful police and severe penalty against racist crimes is good, but changing engineering terms is useless against racism and just gives good arguments to actual racists to publicly criticize anti-racist activists.

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