The Latest Pango + HarfBuzz Is Leading To A Messy Font Rendering Situation For Some

[tildearrow]

It's just like with Web 3.0 design. It must be good, right? Except it's total crap as assessed by people with an actual brain.

Here take this: font comparsion between Windows XP, Windows 10, Fedora 32 (with my fonts and settings), default Fedora 32, default Ubuntu 20.10.

In terms of font rendering quality:

1) Windows XP the absolute best
2) Fedora 32 with my settings close second
3-4) Windows 10, very good && Ubuntu 20.10 with major tweaks, decent - can't decide which one is better
5) Default Fedora 32 as endorsed by Pango/HardBuzz developers - absolute unmitigated CRAP.

https://imgur.com/gallery/M1mw8N8

Now please kindly quit with trying to force modern trendy stylish fonts and font rendering on me, OK? I don't give a crap how they were designed, why they are supposed to look good, why I should trust someone else's opinion on that. I trust my eyes only. ClearType v1/v2 and Windows XP/Windows 7 were designed by scientists, engineers and specialists in human vision - their results are simply astonishing given the fact that they emulate such crisp fonts on low DPI displays.

Modern font rendering as pioneered by Windows 8 (grayish blurry crap) remains crap and no amount of indoctrination can change that.

It looks like this is a matter of personal preference.
Supporting all use cases would be the best solution.

In my opinion:
- Windows XP: crisp. The bold "a" looks ugly though. Some segments don't look that smooth but OK.
- Windows 10: between crisp and soft.
- Ubuntu: soft, but kind of optimized for display and paper (at the same time).
- Fedora: looks like macOS. Too soft and optimized for paper.
- Fedora with your setting: Make it just a little softer and it will look like Windows XP.

Yeah, it appears GNOME was designed as a macOS clone.

Oh yeah, and don't even try to look at the Linux past... I mean font rendering was EVEN WORSE before the FreeType rendering optimizations in 2016...

(Ubuntu and Arch were safe though, as they applied patches to not have the pre-2016 terrible font rendering)

[oiaohm]

1) Windows XP the absolute best
2) Fedora 32 with my settings close second
3-4) Windows 10, very good && Ubuntu 20.10 with major tweaks, decent - can't decide which one is better
5) Default Fedora 32 as endorsed by Pango/HardBuzz developers - absolute unmitigated CRAP.

https://imgur.com/gallery/M1mw8N8

You need todo that again. Take a close look the word Join particularly the J and the letter g. You have compared at least 4 different fonts.

Ubuntu 20.10 and Windows 10 are in fact using the same font and the font that this website is meant to have so this is proper compare between rendering engines. So calling them close is right and that was a proper compare because it rendering engine with same font and a modern font.

Xp looks to have the right J but its a older version of the font there is a give away look at the g notice the Windows 10 and Ubuntu 20.10 have loops on the g and the XP one does not and the J is in the wrong place on join. So the difference between XP and Windows 10/Ubuntu could be simple you were looking at a different font. Some people have issues reading fonts with loops on the g. I cannot detect a major quality difference with the XP and the Windows 10/Ubuntu looking for artefacts in the font render I am detecting a different font used.

Both of the Fedora32 have the wrong J completely and the wrong g. I can get the wrong J as well when I have something blocking the sites font.

There is something more than wrong in the x on the Fedora 32 examples even with your settings. You have not happened to install corefonts on Fedora 32 are are now getting a really old font? Yes it has all the marking in the styling of that font of being a old corefont.

Older fonts like the core web fonts snap things to full hard pixels on both axes, newer fonts and especially web fonts often use a hinting strategy that snaps glyphs to the pixel grid mainly or only vertically and with varying strength.
Older fonts are in fact fonts older than XP. By XP Microsoft had already reworked their provided fonts.

Please note I could list lot more markers I can see for the fonts being different I just picked the simplest for most to see.

You just did a apples to oranges compare did you expect I would not notice?

[birdie]

You need todo that again. Take a close look the word Join particularly the J and the letter g. You have compared at least 4 different fonts.

Ubuntu 20.10 and Windows 10 are in fact using the same font and the font that this website is meant to have so this is proper compare between rendering engines. So calling them close is right and that was a proper compare because it rendering engine with same font and a modern font.

Xp looks to have the right J but its a older version of the font there is a give away look at the g notice the Windows 10 and Ubuntu 20.10 have loops on the g and the XP one does not and the J is in the wrong place on join. So the difference between XP and Windows 10/Ubuntu could be simple you were looking at a different font. Some people have issues reading fonts with loops on the g. I cannot detect a major quality difference with the XP and the Windows 10/Ubuntu looking for artefacts in the font render I am detecting a different font used.

Both of the Fedora32 have the wrong J completely and the wrong g. I can get the wrong J as well when I have something blocking the sites font.

There is something more than wrong in the x on the Fedora 32 examples even with your settings. You have not happened to install corefonts on Fedora 32 are are now getting a really old font? Yes it has all the marking in the styling of that font of being a old corefont.

Older fonts like the core web fonts snap things to full hard pixels on both axes, newer fonts and especially web fonts often use a hinting strategy that snaps glyphs to the pixel grid mainly or only vertically and with varying strength.
Older fonts are in fact fonts older than XP. By XP Microsoft had already reworked their provided fonts.

Please note I could list lot more markers I can see for the fonts being different I just picked the simplest for most to see.

You just did a apples to oranges compare did you expect I would not notice?

All the samples provided above are taken with the OSes having only their default fonts installed except Fedora 32 with my settings and my fonts.

Again Tahoma in Windows 2000, XP and Windows 10 looks indistinguishable in Fedora 32 with Pango 1.43 (the last version to support proper kerning for hintstyle=hintfull) and I'm pretty sure the font has been reworked multiple times between these three OSes because Windows 2000 doesn't support ClearType, and XP and 7 use the different versions of ClearType (v1 and v2), so all the talk about me using "bad" "old" "wrongly optimized" Tahoma doesn't seem to have any grounds behind it.

[birdie]

In case you wanna see for yourself I've made the major Tahoma releases available here. Think of it as piracy except Windows 7/10 can be downloaded freely from microsoft.com and 2000/XP are no longer supported and have long been relegated to legacy. In fact Windows 2000 have been made available via archive.org

[oiaohm]

All the samples provided above are taken with the OSes having only their default fonts installed except Fedora 32 with my settings and my fonts.

Again Tahoma in Windows 2000, XP and Windows 10 looks indistinguishable in Fedora 32 with Pango 1.43 (the last version to support proper kerning for hintstyle=hintfull) and I'm pretty sure the font has been reworked multiple times between these three OSes because Windows 2000 doesn't support ClearType, and XP and 7 use the different versions of ClearType (v1 and v2), so all the talk about me using "bad" "old" "wrongly optimized" Tahoma doesn't seem to have any grounds behind it.

Do they in fact look the same after the change did you check that. Tahoma in 2000 depending on service pack is either 9x font the new font. The tahoma in corefonts is from 97 so a 9x font.

ClearType v1 and v2 did not require any alteration in hinting data or gypths in the font file. 2000-XP time frame there are changes to the hinting and the gypths in the fonts. 9x OS required hinting and gypths done a particular incorrect way that they worked. For a long time freetype detect that and processed it wrong so it came out right.

hintfull even on 1.43 is incompatible with many fonts.

Have you ever read the description of what hintfull says todo to font.
hintfull: is supposed to give a crisp font that aligns well to the character-cell grid but at the cost of its proper shape.

Sorry hintfull is not asking for a font rendered with proper kerning worse part if the hinting/gypths are out in any way saying go hintfull says go nuts and mangle it how ever you like because font proper shape is no longer important.

Some of the problem is they in fact fixed hintfull and made the bugger in fact work as documented. Wonder if hintmedium now works as something different to hintfull.

[smitty3268]

I waited for a reply in the pango bug tracker for almost two months. No one cared to give any answers. Then I kinda lost my temper. Please tell me what's the best way to attract developers' attention when they simly don't give a damn and ignore you.

Sure. How about something like this:

Any updates on this issue?

Oh, just like you actually did. And then, you got a reply telling you no one was working on it. And then you went off on them.

So yeah, at that point the only thing you are doing is annoying them, and while I get maybe you were hoping to badger them enough they'd eventually give up and do whatever you wanted that's not usually how things work in the real world. People get annoyed and then just try to piss you off further because you're annoying them. I mean, when was the last time a flamewar started here on Phoronix and one side concluded it by apologizing and admitting they were wrong - it's just not going to happen. If there was ever any chance of getting them to work on this for free it's definitely gone now.

what's the best way to attract developers' attention when they simly don't give a damn and ignore you.

By bringing up something they do give a damn about. Generally, that means money if you can't convince them they really should care about your pet issue.

[timofonic]

The Gnome 3 desktop has forced users to have a "decent" GPU for a while. Why not force a "decent" monitor too?

Not having a HiDiPi screen is what they called "old technology". You need to be modern.

I wouldn't use Linux if I had to be "modern". I would use a proprietary operating system with proprietary hardware, such as Apple.

Gnome/Red Hat/IBM is totally lost.

[Delgarde]

Put your SJW/CoC principles back where the Sun doesn't ever shine, deep into your intestines.

And there's the problem. Nobody is talking SJW/CoC principles... this is just basic "communicating with people 101". Be a whining complaining asshole, and people will treat you like one. Act like a civilised human being, and maybe they'll treat you like one of those instead. Seriously, this is stuff that we teach pre-school children...

[birdie]

And there's the problem. Nobody is talking SJW/CoC principles... this is just basic "communicating with people 101". Be a whining complaining asshole, and people will treat you like one. Act like a civilised human being, and maybe they'll treat you like one of those instead. Seriously, this is stuff that we teach pre-school children...

Looks like someone has speedily deleted my reply to you because I cursed, OK, let's repeat it but without insults this time.

You failed to notice my very first comment, yet you tell me to behave: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/pango...63#note_780627

Just to note - this is my fourth or fifth update of the ticket because all the previous "Any updates on this" comments were completely ignored and I deleted them. I.e. I tried to ping developers for almost seven days in a row.

Please don't reply to my comments ever again - I will ignore you from now on. I've already blacklisted you but these forums are broken and unfortunately I still see your senseless and insulting posts.

[Delgarde]

Looks like someone has speedily deleted my reply to you because I cursed, OK, let's repeat it but without insults this time.

I've already blacklisted you but these forums are broken and unfortunately I still see your senseless and insulting posts.

Ah, irony.