Debian Developers Decide On Init System Diversity: "Proposal B" Wins

[Paul Frederick]

So are everyone yet they find a way to resolve problem. It seems complaining and flaming on a forum is much easier than reading a documentation. How do you learn to run sysvinit let alone using an operating system?


What was the the name of distribution used on that example and the command on which version of systemd? Could you provide the links of issue so other viewers can check your problem?


Yes, that is your job as system administration running a distribution whose developers set systemd as a system manager. Other posters attempt to help you to understand but you chose to ignore them because they don't fit your view. So yes, you are responsible and attempt to divert your own problem to someone else with your lack of cooperation. Unhappy? why not switching to another distribution or find another job?

Let's break your bullshit down and try to respond to each accusation you've made.

"So are everyone yet they find a way to resolve problem."

Oh I fixed it all long ago. Don't worry about that. It is the fact that I had to fix it that is salient.

"It seems complaining and flaming on a forum is much easier than reading a documentation. "

Not everything is as it seems. What a shocker there. Suffice to say you know nothing. You should proceed as if that is the case too. Making assumptions based on zero information is a good way to look stupid. Congratulations. You're an idiot. I did read the documentation! That's where I got the commands I used. I did not just randomly pull shit out of my ass like how you seem to operate. So quit projecting your inadequacies onto me.

"How do you learn to run sysvinit let alone using an operating system?"

How indeed have I gotten this far? I've been running Linux rather successfully now for over 24 years. Maybe I'm just an idiot savant? heh Or maybe I have shelves of books I've studied. What the fuck is the difference? Either way you questioning my competency is rude. So I'm just going to be rude right back to your wise ass. What comes around goes around.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

"What was the the name of distribution used on that example and the command on which version of systemd?"

To tell you the truth it was so long ago now I'd have to go into my notes to find out precisely which version I was running. It was over 3 years ago. It is not relevant. It has absolutely nothing to do with my initial statement in the context which I made it. In short you don't need to know. And it'd be a pain in the ass for me to even find out myself. You're not worth the effort. Sorry. But not really. /me breaks out the world's smallest violin... and proceeds to play a sad song on it.

"Other posters attempt to help you to understand but you chose to ignore them because they don't fit your view."

No I chose to ignore them because I was not looking for their help. Quite frankly I doubt if anyone here is in any position to help me even if that was my goal. I certainly wouldn't come here looking for help. I may be stupid but I'm not goofy. Instead I did the intelligent thing and filed bug reports in the appropriate place.

"So yes, you are responsible and attempt to divert your own problem to someone else with your lack of cooperation."

Being the responsible party I dealt with it. Responsibly, I may add.

"Unhappy?"

No. But thanks for asking.

"why not switching to another distribution or find another job?"

When the problem first manifested itself I did try out several other distributions. Unfortunately those efforts bore no fruit. So you've made an incorrect assumption that I did not pursue that avenue. I did. Always figure I'm a few steps ahead of you at all times and we should get along just fine. You won't be wrong most of the time either. Which would be light years ahead of where you are now. Don't take this the wrong way kid but you're not nearly as smart as you seem to think that you are. I can tell that just by examining the line of reasoning you attempt to pursue. Because I am that smart. Or so I've been told. With effort you may be able to overcome your deficiencies. But it'll be hard work. Good luck. We're done here now.

[ThiagoCMC]

So, will Devuan die now?

"If the Proposal D by Ian Jackson will not pass, Devuan will die."

https://www.dyne.org/devuan-cannot-exist-without-the-help-of-debian/

What's next?

[NotMine999]

For anyone that was actually AROUND back then and used them, they were extremely usable and widely used. Why? Because unlike today most computers and operating systems came with EXTENSIVE written dead tree manuals that explained how everything worked down to pinouts and circuit diagrams. Ditto for the operating system, firmware interfaces, and any built in or purchased compilers and interpreters. My C-64 came with a manual that explained the board expansion ports, their use, pinouts, and registers. It also detailed how to write programs for the built in BASIC interpreter, described system registers, etc. All of the higher end systems came with both digital and dead tree documentation in multiple volumes describing most of the functionality. The man pages on Unix systems was extensive and generally accurate. So yes, these systems were extremely "usable"!

So stop trolling about usability when you're comparing apples to oranges. These days most computers come with bupkiss and you're expected to "figure it out". It's really no wonder general purpose computing is in the shape it is these days, because no one knows how anything works, and yes this includes Linux with it's usually out of date, missing, or inaccurate "documentation" - and no code never does and never will "document itself". That's a trope for lazy programmers that don't want to write proper documentation.

I agree with the comments about computers that could be bought back in the late 1980s and 1990s. You got books of documentation, sometimes just 1 and sometimes a few. Those books were very informative, and some still are. Nowadays the older young ones look at books and ask, "Where do I put the batteries?" while the younger young ones ask, "Where do I plug in the charger? And where is the charger?"

Those old computers worked from a command line. Many had BASIC onboard in ROM, ready for your use. You learned to use computers that way or you sold the thing and returned to pencil & paper. The point & click GUI interface came about with the Apple ][ family of computers. The Commodore C-64 / C-128 family eventually got a GUI of sorts. Amiga got a ready usable GUI from Day 1. Around that time the IBM PC got Windoze. GUIs brought more users to computers. And you still got dead tree manuals to read and self-educate. Nowadays the users can't function without point & click, gigabytes of preloaded crapware, almost useless preloaded, but more commonly online manuals. "Use the command line? PHOOEY!" [Thank you Nero Wolfe on TV for making "Phooey!" part of my vocabulary.]

Personal computer user communities back then were actually quite friendly and quite helpful. Some only met monthly while others met weekly. People would show off the latest software that they bought or discuss the latest magazines that focused on their specific OS. Sometimes, if you were very lucky and knew the right people, you might get a guest speaker from a local shoppe or maybe a manufacturer's rep dropping by for a chat and possibly to show off hardware. After the meeting some would get together to lift a pint, grab a bite, and continue the chats.

As online BBS began to appear they would specialize in a specific OS, usually because the SysOps or BBS owner(s) knew that OS. A few offered chat spaces for different OS. I don't remember "flame wars" back when I was a SysOp as folks seemed to stay with their own OS crowds. The attitude back then seemed to be, "Why bother knowing about another OS when I've got full hands learning what I have now?" I honestly think "flame wars" brewed up with the advent of Internet access and folks having nothing better to do than to argue (more like bike shedding) unresolvable points. And as I have seen in this thread, those "flame wars" and that "bike shedding" have not gone away.

This thread very early on reached it's "Phoronix Moment", that point in a Phoronix thread when you think you are reading Slashdot. The topic of conversation seems to have spun out farther than Pluto's orbit.

[NotMine999]

systemd unit files are often supplied by upstream

rarely any systemd units in the last 5 years use shell scripts, I guess you haven't used systemd in a while.

And with the advent of that change most maintainers involved in systemd-based distributions have lost the skill and ability to debug shell scripts.

Based on your statement, upstream does all the work for these lazy maintainers. So what do these lazy maintainers actually do for systemd-distributions? Do tell.

[NotMine999]

No goddamnit this isn't a "victory". This is "we keep doing what we were doing until now" which means the issues that pushed them to actually vote and decide to do something will remain (namely having crappy support for both systemd and other inits instead of having GOOD support for a single init)

One of the few times I completely agree with one of your comments, so I clicked the "Like" button.

[Ironmask]

So, will Devuan die now?

"If the Proposal D by Ian Jackson will not pass, Devuan will die."

https://www.dyne.org/devuan-cannot-exist-without-the-help-of-debian/

What's next?

What else? A hard fork of OpenBSD

[Britoid]

So, will Devuan die now?

"If the Proposal D by Ian Jackson will not pass, Devuan will die."

https://www.dyne.org/devuan-cannot-exist-without-the-help-of-debian/

What's next?

If Debian drops the support for any other init system but systemd, I believe we won’t be able to keep up with the legwork needed to support all other init systems.

LMAO. So they won't do it themselves but expect Debian to?

[Britoid]

And with the advent of that change most maintainers involved in systemd-based distributions have lost the skill and ability to debug shell scripts.

Based on your statement, upstream does all the work for these lazy maintainers. So what do these lazy maintainers actually do for systemd-distributions? Do tell.

You're almost saying making it easier to mantain packages and lowering the needed skills is a bad thing?

Mantainers will still need to package it into the native package format and ensure dependencies resolve correctly.

[jason.oliveira]

Looks like the shills found something to latch-on to: "At least Devuan thinks they can't keep up".

It isn't like there's a list of non-SystemD-using Debian-derivatives the Devuan devs could steal from. No sir, This is the silver lining on the dark cloud that proves this loss for SystemD really isn't a loss!

[starshipeleven]

One of the few times I completely agree with one of your comments, so I clicked the "Like" button.

Thank you, good sir.