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Debian Developers Decide On Init System Diversity: "Proposal B" Wins

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  • #91
    So, approximately 72 hours after the article posted, and a pro-systemd comment ends the thread again. At what point does it become mathematically impossible to be organic?

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    • #92
      Originally posted by Britoid View Post

      The people who defend it.
      I mean, the OpenRC camp isn't much better, with their systemd-lite. Why do they even try?

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      • #93
        Originally posted by jason.oliveira View Post
        So, approximately 72 hours after the article posted, and a pro-systemd comment ends the thread again. At what point does it become mathematically impossible to be organic?
        I will give you something nicely not pro systemd. Do you know how people pull out that systemd is not unix design philosophy.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plan_9_from_Bell_Labs

        Lets bring up a fun point of history. Those who write Unix and basically what is the foundation of what we call Posix standards wrote plan 9 and did the first release in 1992. Because they worked out they has massively screwed up implementing Unix.

        Everything is a file design idea of Unix was not obeyed in the implementation of resource control, Process ids, User ids, Group ids... and the list goes on. Turns out these are all the points of Unix and Unix like implementations that screw up badly.

        The fact sysvinit is using process id numbers means it not unix design philosophy either.

        Here is a really good impossible request at the moment find me 1 init/service management solution that in fact obeys "Everything is a file" as required by unix design philosophy. I will not even restrict you to Linux. I will only put the stuff in plan 9 off limits.

        So funny enough the only thing from kernel up that is to Unix design philosophy is plan 9.

        We really do need to bring the Linux kernel in line with the Unix design philosophy instead of in line with Posix what is a formalisation of how Unix design philosophy was badly implemented.
        Last edited by oiaohm; 30 December 2019, 06:57 AM. Reason: missed a not

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        • #94
          Originally posted by jason.oliveira View Post

          Oh, it's definitely SystemD from now on. It triggers people enough to make them correct you. Thanks for the heads-up!

          The rest of your post reads like that old MAD Magazine comic about why it's destined that you will win the Publisher's Clearing House Sweepstakes, because every calamity will happen to everyone that isn't you. But instead it's about how Devuan will lose because init is just so damned tricky, that you can't just make a text file called /linuxrc to replace it. No sir, only rocket surgeons should dare touch PID1. Plus, there are only four active Debian-derivatives that will do much of the lifting for them. I hope you understand if I treat your post with the appropriate TL;DR.

          And you're the only person in the thread worth responding to. Consider that a relative compliment. Happy Holidays!
          aawww.. bless... we've got a 12 year old posting.....

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          • #95
            Originally posted by Grinch View Post
            I have no horse in this race, but it sounds to me that they took the middle path ? What am I missing ?
            The second most systemd-only option on the ballot won. Basically systemd-only, but packagers are allowed to support non-systemd.

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            • #96
              So nothing changed? The winning option is the safest one imo, that's not surprising. I honesty don't care what the solution(s) is as long as it's GPL compatible.

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              • #97
                Wow - I've used both systemd and initrc extensively. They're both pretty simple to learn and use. Why do people care which one is on their box? Stuff changes, you need to stay up to date.

                Also, what's all this UNIX philosophy nonsense? initrc was not part of UNIX anyway - that was inittab.

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                • #98
                  Biggest problem, things changing and coming to fast, people can't cope with this, among other things lacking of proper documentation at any level, from beginner to expert. If someone came late to the party, wondering what is happening

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                  • #99
                    Looks to me like the Debian developers who voted considered the options carefully and decided that it was in Debian's best interests to focus on systemd (which seems to be the de facto standard system/service manager in Linux at this stage) without at the same time completely alienating people who for some reason would rather walk on hot coals than have systemd be the only init system and service manager in Debian.

                    To me, this also seems like the most mature choice from an interpersonal perspective.

                    I did do a double take when the Debian Project Leader called for compassion and respect. I can't quite decide whether I find this amusing, sad, bizarre or just -- again -- a mature reflection of the fact that dealing with and managing geeks with deeply held beliefs and values can be quite tricky if the goal is to keep said geeks happy and productive in a volunteer context.
                    Last edited by ermo; 02 January 2020, 07:25 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by Britoid View Post
                      systemd unit files are often supplied by upstream
                      rarely any systemd units in the last 5 years use shell scripts, I guess you haven't used systemd in a while.
                      The thing is..
                      The Systemd unit files are they already a script, but written in a *yet* another Script language

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