Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Fedora Developers Looking To Change The Default Text Editor From Vi To Nano

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #41
    Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
    Once you learned how to use it.
    You have to learn how to use everything, including nano. The first time I opened nano I had no idea how to exit. The ^X shortcut was not helpful, since I had no idea what the "^" symbol meant. What people are really arguing is that Vi/VIM takes longer to learn, and they don't think that the extra effort is worth it. Of course they wouldn't, the benefits over nano are hard to see until you get comfortable with it.

    Comment


    • #42
      Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
      Do you know how to use Google? Seriously. There have been more Linux/Unix newbie tutorials written about using Vi, than about any other topic. There are scores of youtube videos. Books, articles, etc.
      If the default(!) text editor needs a tutorial or a youtube video(!!), then something is seriously wrong with it.

      And I am a die hard vim fan.

      Comment


      • #43
        Originally posted by betam4x View Post
        You are probably thinking of 'vi', vim's bastard cousin.
        More like an abusive father


        Originally posted by cynical View Post
        You have to learn how to use everything, including nano. The first time I opened nano I had no idea how to exit. The ^X shortcut was not helpful, since I had no idea what the "^" symbol meant. What people are really arguing is that Vi/VIM takes longer to learn, and they don't think that the extra effort is worth it. Of course they wouldn't, the benefits over nano are hard to see until you get comfortable with it.
        Some things won't require you specifically put effort to learn them, as they follow mental models you've already learnt elsewhere. In the case of nano, it's closest to graphical notepad-like editors in behavior, so the mental model is the same. Only thing that isn't obvious to any person who already used a computer is what the caret symbol means. That's what "intuitive" means, otherwise it'd be a pointless term that applies to nothing. Vim requires a very different mental model to even be barely usable. Once you get familiar with it, it gets very useful. Note that the distinction I'm making here is that making sense (the model when using Vim is not obvious, but is very consistent and simple once you get it) is not the same as being intuitive (you can infer to a reasonable degree how to work with it based on previous models, which should be considered commonplace).

        And, no, they don't see the value because, if you're just going to use it sparingly when you can't avoid editing from the console files that are probably never long, then the effort doesn't pay out. It's different if you're gonna use it, for example, for development (for whatever reason you decided not to just use an IDE, or because some things are in remote servers without a UI and programming with nano is a pain, at least before a lot of tweaking), where it amortizes with time.
        I, too, use Vim day to day and I feel much more productive than before using it (though I was lazy enough to never learn the key shortcuts for most things in other applications), and given that, I use it for administration, too. If I wouldn't, then I'd be using nano for that.

        Comment


        • #44
          Originally posted by cynical View Post
          ...
          Oh for crying out loud... When you can figure something out at a glance, which is what Nano excels at compared to Vi, that just is more intuitive than if you're forced to look it up. No amount of moaning about GUIs changes this and the reason why GUIs became the dominant type of user interface is because they are more intuitive to use than a terminal. A hallmark of intuitive design is that you can figure it out as you go along and you're not forced to look things up or ask for help from someone else and GUIs are supposed to be like this. A bit of basics and then you can figure it all out on your own rather than having to look every little thing up separately like you have to do with Vi.

          Also, no. No matter how much you try to use your old person straw man, if the average old person finds intuitive software like GUIs hard to use, they'll find unintuitive software like Vi plain unusable.

          In all honesty, Vi is a relic that predates intuitive user interface design for software. If it was a car, then it would be the Model T and that was absolutely horrid to try to drive compared to modern day cars.

          Comment


          • #45
            This comment section is exactly like I imagined XD, I personally think nano is the better default editor, but I get that many use vi and it's powerful.
            I personally think they should add a radio-button into the installer and make the default nano, this should be easy enough for vi enthusiasts. It should also keep vi if you update a system which uses vi as default editor.

            Comment


            • #46
              Originally posted by davibu View Post
              This comment section is exactly like I imagined XD, I personally think nano is the better default editor, but I get that many use vi and it's powerful.
              I personally think they should add a radio-button into the installer and make the default nano, this should be easy enough for vi enthusiasts. It should also keep vi if you update a system which uses vi as default editor.
              Ehhh, I expected more violence and more e-macs users gloating over the loss of vi users.
              On the radio-button, the issue with this is that it's an implementation detail that most users won't care about, as long as their systems work well, and that it would creep up with any other multiple-choice software, and would be boring and overwhelming to pick package by package what you want. If you want that, just use one of the tech-savvy distros already.

              Comment


              • #47
                Originally posted by betam4x View Post

                IIRC vim doesn't ship as the default editor on any distro as far as I am aware. You are probably thinking of 'vi', vim's bastard cousin. The 'vi' command will likely continue to be included for compatibility reasons, the EDITOR variable will probably be changed (and can be changed back just as easily). Barring that, as long as you have packages cached offline in some form (ISO, CD, USB stick) you should be able to install it just fine. However, I've never had a use case like this. Even on long haul flights I've had the option for internet.

                EDIT: Also, I usually prepare for flights, I generally don't run into situations where I need to install a package.
                Vim is the default editor on Exherbo.

                If you ask me, it's to deliberately scare away non-developers -- in the sense that shipping vim by default is a feature, not a bug from a certain point of view apparently.

                Comment


                • #48
                  Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                  Some things won't require you specifically put effort to learn them, as they follow mental models you've already learnt elsewhere. In the case of nano, it's closest to graphical notepad-like editors in behavior, so the mental model is the same. Only thing that isn't obvious to any person who already used a computer is what the caret symbol means. That's what "intuitive" means, otherwise it'd be a pointless term that applies to nothing.
                  If you have to learn it to use it, or it requires previously learned knowledge, then I don't consider that intuitive. I agree that it is a pointless term when applied to computers, save for the tactile feedback you get from the mobile variety. Manipulating a screen with your fingers is intuitive, most of what is done with a UI is not.

                  From Merriam-Webster, the definition of intuition is:

                  a: immediate apprehension or cognition

                  b : knowledge or conviction gained by intuition

                  c : the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference
                  If you consider something intuitive due to prior knowledge (meaning that it doesn't require rational thought because you learned it already) then everything is intuitive once you've learned it somewhere else. Does that sound correct?

                  Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                  Vim requires a very different mental model to even be barely usable. Once you get familiar with it, it gets very useful. Note that the distinction I'm making here is that making sense (the model when using Vim is not obvious, but is very consistent and simple once you get it) is not the same as being intuitive (you can infer to a reasonable degree how to work with it based on previous models, which should be considered commonplace).
                  The argument I'm making is that anything related to computers is no different. You only think so because you've forgotten how much knowledge you have accumulated over the course of your life, and things are so easy now that you infer how most computers work due to your familiarity. (and the fact that most UIs are identical) Sit a Windows user down in front of Gnome, or Linux in general, and ask them to accomplish common tasks like installing software or navigating the user interface. We all know what the result is going to be. Is Linux unintuitive, or simply unfamiliar?

                  It's funny because I've used Linux for decades, and recently I was asked to work on a Windows machine. I hadn't used it in so long that I forgot all the knowledge I used to have, and I had to look up how to do things with the bootloader/recovery mode, even though those things are handled through the UI instead of on the command-line like Linux. It sure as hell didn't feel intuitive.

                  Originally posted by mrugiero View Post
                  And, no, they don't see the value because, if you're just going to use it sparingly when you can't avoid editing from the console files that are probably never long, then the effort doesn't pay out. It's different if you're gonna use it, for example, for development (for whatever reason you decided not to just use an IDE, or because some things are in remote servers without a UI and programming with nano is a pain, at least before a lot of tweaking), where it amortizes with time.
                  I, too, use Vim day to day and I feel much more productive than before using it (though I was lazy enough to never learn the key shortcuts for most things in other applications), and given that, I use it for administration, too. If I wouldn't, then I'd be using nano for that.
                  It's quite a narrow niche though isn't it? The user who dips down into the command-line to tweak things but doesn't do it often. I think you are more likely to be a user who either sticks entirely to the GUI or drops to the command-line quite a bit to get things done. I get what you mean though, because I was in that niche when I first started learning Linux. Nano is a great beginner's tool, but any user that finds themselves frequently modifying files in a terminal should take the time to learn VIM.

                  Comment


                  • #49
                    Originally posted by torsionbar28 View Post
                    I guess if you completely ignore AIX, HP-UX, Solaris, FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Tru64, IRIX, etc. then your statement actually becomes true!


                    Do you know how to use Google? Seriously. There have been more Linux/Unix newbie tutorials written about using Vi, than about any other topic. There are scores of youtube videos. Books, articles, etc. Quite frankly the only way a Linux user in 2019 cannot use Vi, is by willful ignorance. It is only through determined brute force learning avoidance, that one can become a Linux user who doesn't know Vi. It's quite a feat, actually.
                    IMHO the more relevant question is why should anyone in 2019 use vi? That it's a core part of the *nix history means nothing. It has no advantages or merits whatsoever compared to more modern alternatives and although we do need a console based editor for a limited number of use cases, Linux as a whole should aim to be an alternative to Windows and MacOS that respects the four freedoms, not some sort of neo-luddist cult that tries to keep Unix alive.

                    Comment


                    • #50
                      Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
                      Oh for crying out loud... When you can figure something out at a glance, which is what Nano excels at compared to Vi, that just is more intuitive than if you're forced to look it up. No amount of moaning about GUIs changes this and the reason why GUIs became the dominant type of user interface is because they are more intuitive to use than a terminal. A hallmark of intuitive design is that you can figure it out as you go along and you're not forced to look things up or ask for help from someone else and GUIs are supposed to be like this. A bit of basics and then you can figure it all out on your own rather than having to look every little thing up separately like you have to do with Vi.
                      I had to look up how to use nano when I first started, because I didn't know what the caret symbol meant. Is that harder than learning that you have to type a colon and q and hit enter to exit VIM? Hardly. If your argument is that you should use whatever is most familiar or takes the least amount of learning, that rules out nano also. Vi just takes "a bit of basics" too. You learn the modes, "hjkl" for navigation, and you're done. Takes a few weeks or so for the muscle memory to do it quickly. The advanced stuff is just icing on the cake that you can take your time to learn if you want, and it's all optional.

                      Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
                      if the average old person finds intuitive software like GUIs hard to use, they'll find unintuitive software like Vi plain unusable.
                      GUIs are not intuitive. You learned to use them like everything else. That's why so many people whine even to this day about Gnome; it's different from the typical model for Windows/KDE that you already are familiar with.

                      Originally posted by L_A_G View Post
                      In all honesty, Vi is a relic that predates intuitive user interface design for software. If it was a car, then it would be the Model T and that was absolutely horrid to try to drive compared to modern day cars.
                      You could say the same for any command-line tool, including nano.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      X