Fedora Developers Looking To Change The Default Text Editor From Vi To Nano

[archsway]

Not only that, but most distros I've used in the past ship with vi, not vim. vim was always just a package install away for me. It looks like it will continue to be. (Not that I use any redhat distros these days)

Maybe this is why:

$ pacman -Qi vi vim-runtime emacs | grep Size
Installed Size  : 342.00 KiB
Installed Size  : 29.23 MiB
Installed Size  : 109.62 MiB

Also: vim is larger than vi, and we can all agree that vim is better than vi.

Emacs is larger than vim, so Emacs is obviously superior.

(Those WIMP text editors that ship a web browser don't count.)

Slackware ships with vim, elvis and emacs, but not vi.

[mrugiero]

If you have to learn it to use it, or it requires previously learned knowledge, then I don't consider that intuitive. I agree that it is a pointless term when applied to computers, save for the tactile feedback you get from the mobile variety. Manipulating a screen with your fingers is intuitive, most of what is done with a UI is not.

OK, this is valid.

If you consider something intuitive due to prior knowledge (meaning that it doesn't require rational thought because you learned it already) then everything is intuitive once you've learned it somewhere else. Does that sound correct?

Not if it's not exactly what you've learnt. If I learn Vim in France and then I know how to use Vim when I come back home, I won't claim it's intuitive, because I learnt how to use Vim by directed effort. If I learn how to use a regular editor in a GUI, and I can apply it almost without change in a different tool, then I'll call that tool intuitive. Of course, this makes "intuition" relative to background. If someone was raised using Vim and no other editor, it'd be confused at first when facing nano.

You only think so because you've forgotten how much knowledge you have accumulated over the course of your life, and things are so easy now that you infer how most computers work due to your familiarity.

I see your point, but no, I didn't forget, that's why I'm making the point I'm making: I can use nano because I learnt the mental model (but not the tool!) in past experiences. I'm not forgetting those experiences, I'm asserting those make nano intuitive to me. Of course, this per se be generalized (because, again, it comes from previous experiences), but when you take into account most desktop users come from either Mac or Windows, and that their editors work a given way, then it becomes more likely for them to find nano intuitive than Vim, which in turn is why we call the tool itself intuitive, even when that's circumstantial.
Also, there are a few things where the backgrounds of everybody more or less intersect, which will sound like a dumb remark, but I think it matter, which is no modes (you don't have modes when you write on paper, and most people using computers know how to write) and you navigate with arrows, the most common symbol to indicate directions.
vi, by default, is counter-intuitive in that sense.

(and the fact that most UIs are identical) Sit a Windows user down in front of Gnome, or Linux in general, and ask them to accomplish common tasks like installing software or navigating the user interface. We all know what the result is going to be. Is Linux unintuitive, or simply unfamiliar?

And this is entirely compatible with my point. Familiarity is something we can settle on, maybe. I think it's enough reason to switch the default, though.

It's funny because I've used Linux for decades, and recently I was asked to work on a Windows machine. I hadn't used it in so long that I forgot all the knowledge I used to have, and I had to look up how to do things with the bootloader/recovery mode, even though those things are handled through the UI instead of on the command-line like Linux. It sure as hell didn't feel intuitive.

Tell me about it. At first, when I started using Linux, the terminal was like this... Devil... where you would only go in extreme need to sell your soul to save your skin. I had no idea how that worked, and had to look up everything and all but the simplest commands were like ancient runes to me. Once I got the basic idea, it just seemed so much practical. I think I always got a little bit lost when configuring things via GUIs, and this just made me notice how much. Also, the day I realized there were manpages and I had most of what I needed right in my PC, that was awesome (of course, Windows used to have some acceptable help files some time ago, too, but they felt clunky).

It's quite a narrow niche though isn't it? The user who dips down into the command-line to tweak things but doesn't do it often. I think you are more likely to be a user who either sticks entirely to the GUI or drops to the command-line quite a bit to get things done. I get what you mean though, because I was in that niche when I first started learning Linux. Nano is a great beginner's tool, but any user that finds themselves frequently modifying files in a terminal should take the time to learn VIM.

I'm not thinking about the user who dips down. Those should probably use Vim or E-macs, because they probably edit things from the console often. I'm thinking of the one whose boot just broke and need to fix it, the one who can't really fix it only by searching the logs and the like, but a more novice user who finds themselves in the need to edit something from the CLI because the GUI is not working.

[betam4x]

Maybe this is why:

$ pacman -Qi vi vim-runtime emacs | grep Size
Installed Size : 342.00 KiB
Installed Size : 29.23 MiB
Installed Size : 109.62 MiB

Also: vim is larger than vi, and we can all agree that vim is better than vi.

Emacs is larger than vim, so Emacs is obviously superior.

(Those WIMP text editors that ship a web browser don't count.)

Slackware ships with vim, elvis and emacs, but not vi.

I won't get into the emacs vs vim debate, as on the terminal, I'm a vim guy and would tell you to go pound sand with your bloated editor. There is definitely a strong use case for editors like Visual Studio Code, etc. There is also nothing wrong with either the electron based editors or emacs/vim. (well, except emacs itself)

Visual Studio code in particular, is very powerful. I've actually successfully rewritten an entire test suite for an upcoming test suite version upgrade (syntax changes) using nothing but a series of regex replacements. Thousands of tests, 20 minutes tops. Yes other editors and even command line utilities can do that, but in VSCode I can preview the changes and also review them. The UI is nicer as well.

[cynical]

Not if it's not exactly what you've learnt. If I learn Vim in France and then I know how to use Vim when I come back home, I won't claim it's intuitive, because I learnt how to use Vim by directed effort. If I learn how to use a regular editor in a GUI, and I can apply it almost without change in a different tool, then I'll call that tool intuitive. Of course, this makes "intuition" relative to background. If someone was raised using Vim and no other editor, it'd be confused at first when facing nano.

Exactly. The other issue is that, if you accept the definition of intuitive that you are using here (that if I learn a regular editor, and that enables me to learn other editors, making those editors intuitive because I already know the model) then the problem you have is that everything becomes intuitive once it is learned. That means modal editors are intuitive, because once I learn VIM, I know the model and now I can learn any other modal editor. It's intuitive, you just have to learn it first. I'm sure you wouldn't find that argument compelling, and I don't either, so that makes me think that nothing relying on learning can be considered intuitive at all.

If something is intuitive once it is learned, then that means everything is intuitive, it is just a question of whether you have internalized the model yet or not.

I see your point, but no, I didn't forget, that's why I'm making the point I'm making: I can use nano because I learnt the mental model (but not the tool!) in past experiences. I'm not forgetting those experiences, I'm asserting those make nano intuitive to me. Of course, this per se be generalized (because, again, it comes from previous experiences), but when you take into account most desktop users come from either Mac or Windows, and that their editors work a given way, then it becomes more likely for them to find nano intuitive than Vim, which in turn is why we call the tool itself intuitive, even when that's circumstantial.

You are describing familiarity, which I agree with. When you say intuitive, to me that is implying that nano is intrinsically easier to grasp. It isn't though, it's just easier because it more closely fits your existing knowledge and experience.

Also, there are a few things where the backgrounds of everybody more or less intersect, which will sound like a dumb remark, but I think it matter, which is no modes (you don't have modes when you write on paper, and most people using computers know how to write) and you navigate with arrows, the most common symbol to indicate directions.
vi, by default, is counter-intuitive in that sense.

That's an unfortunate limitation for paper. On the other hand, we are used to having to focus a dialog box before we can input text or have a keyboard appear on a mobile device, so modal interfaces are not totally foreign. You can use arrow keys to navigate in VIM, it just doesn't make any sense to do so because they are further away from where your fingers rest than the "hjkl" keys are.

And this is entirely compatible with my point. Familiarity is something we can settle on, maybe. I think it's enough reason to switch the default, though.

I wasn't saying that to disagree, I was saying it to see what you think. Is Linux unintuitive because the normal method to install applications is a package manager instead of downloading an installer from a website? If intuitiveness is an intrinsic quality, then it would seem to me that launching an application to search for and install applications is more intuitive than going to random websites and downloading an application to install your application, considering that the latter requires you to use a search engine and pray it gives you a useful result as opposed to a Software Store which can only give you applications as results for a query.

Tell me about it. At first, when I started using Linux, the terminal was like this... Devil... where you would only go in extreme need to sell your soul to save your skin. I had no idea how that worked, and had to look up everything and all but the simplest commands were like ancient runes to me. Once I got the basic idea, it just seemed so much practical. I think I always got a little bit lost when configuring things via GUIs, and this just made me notice how much. Also, the day I realized there were manpages and I had most of what I needed right in my PC, that was awesome (of course, Windows used to have some acceptable help files some time ago, too, but they felt clunky).

Haha, likewise. And I started Linux with Gentoo. THAT was a trip. I don't have the tolerance for that kind of pain anymore, but I couldn't imagine learning as much as I did any other way. I also love command-line switches. They are not always easy to remember, but it does mean you can actually write scripts and automate stuff so that you don't have to. Then you can mix and match programs, pipe the output of one into another, stuff that is not possible with GUIs.

I'm not thinking about the user who dips down. Those should probably use Vim or E-macs, because they probably edit things from the console often. I'm thinking of the one whose boot just broke and need to fix it, the one who can't really fix it only by searching the logs and the like, but a more novice user who finds themselves in the need to edit something from the CLI because the GUI is not working.

Oh yeah I agree with that. The kind of user who doesn't even necessarily care to learn all that much, but wants to get their system working again and can glean some useful information from web searches. I'm not even arguing about the default here, I think it hardly matters. I just suspect that when people say intuitive, what they really mean is familiar but they want to confer an objective superiority onto their preference. So for example, some will say KDE or Gnome are more intuitive than the other, implying that one desktop is just objectively easier to use, but I think it depends more on what you are used to and whether you are willing to adapt and try something new.

I thought Unity was horrible at first, but then I learned to love it. Search-based application launching is much nicer to me than menu-based launching, and I see that my negative opinion was just me rejecting a new method of working and trying to cling to what I already knew. I was much more open to Gnome after that experience.

[carewolf]

I've always thought of Vi as a lesson in how not to design a terminal-based utility for a relatively simple task. Some people think it's intuitive, and I think those people have a very peculiar definition of the word.

The only standard interaction possible with vi is closing it using ctrl+z kill %1

[M@yeulC]

Eeh? They should just make ed the default, right? After all, that's the standard UNIX editor.

Also, butterflies.

[ruthan]

For old Dos/Windows users as me would best choice Freedos port of Old Ms Edit.com.. which is still better than Mcedit which is better than Nano. Maybe in ten years will even Linux world get it.. It took lots of years to get rid of Vi as default.. Of course all this make sense old with ctrl+c and other windows like hotkeys. Keep it working and clean is best design choice ever for such tool. I dont know too much people which had problem to use Notepad.. If you are power user you know how to change default editor..

[coder]

<twitter poll>

Why? That's probably going to have an anti-vi bias, as many of us probably don't have Twitter accounts.

[coder]

Whilst I prefer Vi it does make a lot of sense to ship an editor that's easier to use.

Sure.

But, unlike some distros, I hope they at least keep vim as part of the base install!

[elatllat]

I always use vim over nano, and I understand nano is better for n00bz, but n00bz probably should not be editing sytem files on the command line before they learn to 3way merge with vimdiff.