Debian Moves Closer To Voting On Proposals Over Init System Diversity

[jacob]

You do realize you just described every Unix and Unix-like that's ever been created? Ah the engineer's toolbox: duct tape, bailing wire, and bubble gum. Unix embodies it well.

That's exactly right and it's the reason why Unix and Unix-like philosophies should be ditched once and for all.

[9Strike]

I am NOT a fan of systemd, and since Debian has made it the default, I have had some minor problems here and there, but, now that Debian is pretty much a systemd distro, I think they should just leave it as-is. Folks like me who prefer a non-systemd init can go elsewhere and not distract or upset an already busy project like Debian.

Wow, you're the first person (which doesn't like systemd) I saw who actually think about the people doing the work. While there is stuff that works pretty well on Debian, stuff like updating xorg or DEs takes ages even in unstable. Debian's package approach is already not easy, making it more complicated with people wanting non-systemd support (which you often don't even have upstream) is not helpful. There's Devuan or Void (or many others) for that.
I also don't get why the alternatives aren't able to write a compatibilty layer to convert systemd service/socket files to their concept. It can't be that hard, and if it is that means there's a good reason that we have systemd^^

[Hibiki Kanzaki]

Optional systemd at the bottom would be amazing. It could open the door to incorporating features from Devuan so everything systemd becomes optional, which hopefully would lead to looser coupling to the systemd universe on Debian and Ubuntu. I appreciate any resistance to everything inevitably falling into tight coupling with pieces of the systemd universe.

[milkylainen]

Let the religion begin on init methodology. 30+ posts on dogma alone. Meanwhile most desktop Linux users don't really care.

Ok. Users don't care and developers(?) do. So what? It's not like the only religious war on solutions.

[reavertm]

Finally the kind of diversity that is expected to be discussed within Debian project..
(and if you think I'm homophobic anti-Lennartwarist, think again)

[coder]

Let the religion begin on init methodology. 30+ posts on dogma alone.

Even if you don't expect the discussion to be worthwhile, I fail to see how this is remotely constructive. If you don't have anything useful to say and you're so certain this will be a waste of time, why did you even click on the comments link, let alone decide to post?

Do you open a bag of rotting garbage, before every movie you think you won't enjoy, and then wait around to make sure it's as bad as you expected? Most people would just go do something else.

Meanwhile most desktop Linux users don't really care.

Completely irrelevant. Most users of most technology products don't care about the implementation details.

What matters is the opinions of admins, maintainers, developers, and others who have to deal a lot with systemd or its alternatives.

[coder]

I think it's almost too late to rip out systemd. The biggest problem with it is that it's a blob that's slowly eating all of the userspace facilities and system functionality.

That's my main gripe with it - that it defies the concept of modularity. They should've focused on standardizing a set of interfaces, so that different services could be swapped out for various duties. Instead, we're now forced with an all-or-nothing proposition. If given the freedom to choose the bits I want, I might even opt for many of systemd's components. But, that's what's missing - the freedom to choose.

I don't hate systemd. I even recognize it as progress. I just don't appreciate this attitude that any complaints about it are seen as anti-progress and that any issues with systemd are fundamentally irreconcilable, and therefore trivially written-off.

I should add that I've also been bitten by my share of systemd bugs and poor documentation - both things that might've been at least partly a consequence of too much ambition, on the part of the systemd team. If they'd focused on the userspace system architecture and not tried to implement everything themselves, maybe they would've been even more successful in their goals.

[stormcrow]

...an OS held together by sticky tape.

You do realize you just described every Unix and Unix-like that's ever been created? Ah the engineer's toolbox: duct tape, bailing wire, and bubble gum. Unix embodies it well.

[willbprog177]

I am NOT a fan of systemd, and since Debian has made it the default, I have had some minor problems here and there, but, now that Debian is pretty much a systemd distro, I think they should just leave it as-is. Folks like me who prefer a non-systemd init can go elsewhere and not distract or upset an already busy project like Debian.

[CommunityMember]

caused by a certain vocal minority

In this case, the only votes that should count are the people actually doing the work (there are a smallish number of packages which run as services, and only those people should have a vote(*)). Letting "the community" decide others (free) work efforts are one of the surest way to end the participation of those that can actually do.

(*) Those that want support for alternative init systems should only get a vote if they commit to taking full ownership of the package, and have shown they are competent to do so.